Pedersoli whitworth rifle

[Artificer]

The Confederate Sharpshooters were using aimed shots and not volley firing when Sedgwick was hit. It is just that there does not seem to have been a record of how many Sharpshooters were firing.

The following single, eyewitness account tells us much about it, though of course other accounts were/are available: http://civilwarhome.com/sedgwickdeath.htm

My apology to the OP for going off topic like this.

Gus

 

[Zonie]

Just out of interest I did a bit of calculating.

How tall does a 6 foot man, standing at 800 yards look at the front sight of a iron sighted rifle?

If the sights were 30 inches apart, the 6 foot man would look like he was .075 inches tall at that range.
That's about 1/64" taller than 1/16 of an inch.

If the mans head was about 10 inches tall from chin to top, his head would make a .011" tall target at the front sight of the snipers rifle.

I'm not saying that snipers didn't take long shots at distances of 800 yards but I am saying that if the sniper was aiming at the targets head and he actually hit it, it was a matter of luck.

It explains nicely where the term "it's a long shot", came from.

 

[Artificer]

I'm not saying that snipers didn't take long shots at distances of 800 yards but I am saying that if the sniper was aiming at the targets head and he actually hit it, it was a matter of luck.

Jim,

One requirement we know that American Ordnance held for the M 1855 and '61, etc. Rifle Musket was that it would be capable of "hitting a man size target at 600 yards and stopping the charge of a horse at 300 yards." Of course, they did not mean the rifle musket was capable of hitting the head of an enemy at that range, but somewhere on his entire body.

I don't know of any period source that shows what the Soldiers were taught to aim at.

My speculation from having fired many rounds at 500 yards at a man sized silhouette over many years, is that they did indeed aim at head because it was/is a finer aiming point to shoot at. It also is more or less in line with the center of the torso and that is important for possible windage aiming errors. However, I don't believe they expected to hit the head, rather the rounds would drop into the torso and be better centered side to side, ensuring a higher likelihood of hitting the torso. I know this technique worked the best for me and most other shooters on that silhouette target at 500 yards.

I also know that a man's head is distinguishable at 700 yards, even without the Shiny Brass device every Union Soldier wore on top of his Kepi. This from having watched many times from behind the 700 yard line that Scout Snipers have to hit a moving target in the body, 7 out of 10 times while the target is moving at a walking pace.

What I don't know is how much further the head is distinguishable, but it still would have been in their interest to aim at the top of the body for a finer aiming point and more of a chance of hitting the torso.

Gus

Modified to add: The aiming point at 500 yards that was most successful was where the bottom of the head/neck joined the shoulders on the silhouette target. It isn't quite that clear at 700 yards, but you can still aim at the head.

 

[nkbj]

Luck? Yep, which is another way of saying his number came up.
When you see a belt buckle with a minie hole dead center, and you see the minies that hit head on and fused together, it was just a matter of time until a bullet fused with a general. And I'm not talking down the great amount of skill involved in getting a bullet there for the infusion. Somebody was really, really, very good.

 

[dodger]

McMahon's report includes a description of the "shrill whistle " of several bullets passing close by .The Whitworth hexagonal bullet is purported to have a distinct whistling sound .
Maybe this is the reason that the legend was born of a sharpshooter bearing a Whitworth rifle being responsible for the death of General Sedgewick .
A quote that has been attributed to several wise men through the ages states that " the first casualty of war is the truth ".Drawing on this Samuel Johnson said "Among the calamities of war may be justly numbered the diminution of the love of truth, by the falsehoods which interest dictates and credulity encourages."
Credulity is the key word here , sometimes " facts" are sculptured to fit the situation , also written records can be inaccurate . None of us were there and nothing should be taken as "gospel" .
The only way to find out is to ask for a volunteer [with good hearing] to stand 800 yds downrange whilst a shooter takes aim and executes a near miss , first with an Enfield and then with a Whitworth .
Any takers ?

 

[Rick Boylan]

Man it only took 3 posts before this whole thread was hijacked by everything but discussion of the Whitworth rifle as started by the OP.

:td: ff

 

[Zonie]

Man it only took 3 posts before this whole thread was hijacked by everything but discussion of the Whitworth rifle as started by the OP.

:td: ff

Right you are.

I think part of the reason is because there are not too many people who own or shoot Whitworth's so to answer the question, "anyone plan on getting one?" is probably not many if any.

Pedersoli is known for the well made guns they build so it's quality should be good.

On the other side of the coin, because it is a rather special rifle, prices are likely to be high and it won't shoot low cost projectiles like patched roundballs very well.

As for all of the posts about the rifles past, I think anyone interested in buying one would like to read everything they can about the guns history.

 

[dodger]

When you consider the cost of tooling for a small production run I don't think the price of the Whitworth is outrageous and is very much the same as other historic guns that Pedersoli manufactures .
I have a hunch that the barrels are bought in from another manufacturer , maybe from the company in the UK that have the old Parker Hale equipment http://www.armalon.com/public/static/page/4
or maybe from another gunmaker in the north of Italy .
One little quirk that I have noticed is that the front sling swivel is symmetrical , unlike the Parker Hales which sometimes were fitted with offset surplus Lee Enfield swivels.
Pedersoli did try to bring down the cost by packaging the rifle in a crappy cardboard box ; Canada Post had a great time punching holes in it , thankfully no damage was done . A smart hard sided presentation case would have been better .
Enjoy your shooting ,
Dodger

 

[Mean Gene]

You wouldn't need a volunteer, just a good microphone and recording system set up then you could here it for yourself.

 

[Artificer]

The "shrill whistle" of the incoming rounds mentioned by McMahon probably had as much to do with the range, the velocity of the rounds at that range and perhaps most importantly, the angle and the closeness of the rounds going by them. The acoustics on a battlefield are often very strange.

The thing that will make or break the Pedersoli Whitworth is without a doubt the quality of the barrel. If the rifle dos not shoot well and I mean really well, it is going to go down in flames. It would not require the same barrel maker as the real Parker Hale, but it will require at least very close to that quality.

Though Pedersoli could make a lock as good as the Real Parker Hale Whitworth, I would tend to bet it won't be that good. As long as it is serviceable and the barrel is good, that probably won't be a huge issue, though it will be an issue to some or many.

Yes, I absolutely had the greatest regard for the accuracy and overall quality of the Real PH products. I also so the deterioration of the regard for the Whitworth go down a fair amount when Euroarms used the remainder of the Real PH barrels and Euroarms locks. It went down a LOT more when the barrels were made by Euroarms.

I really look forward to some evaluations of the Pedersoli Whitworth to see what they came up with.

Gus

 

[fleener]

I have been in the pits pulling targets for at least one guy that at times shoots a hex bullet out of an original rifle. I will have to listen next time to see if I can tell a difference.

when a bullet is not stable you can hear that difference at times.

Fleener

 

[TFoley]

A few years back I was talking to Peter Sarony [Armalon's owner] about this subject.

His word were simply understood - 'we make hammer-forged barrels, and the P-H Whitworth barrels were cut rifled'.

Your suppose that they are made elsewhere in Iddly is not a real surprise, since Pedersoli and Uberti and anybody else left making guns ALL cut their barrels.

tac

PS - an incoming Whitworth bullet goes FFFFFFFFFFFrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrTHWACK. Just thought you'd like to know.

 

[dodger]

Thank you tac for clarifying the Armalon question . Pedersoli state that the Whitworth barrels are indeed hammer forged , so they must be made inhouse or sourced elsewhere , I favour the idea they are made elsewhere since it would be costly to set up a hammer forging plant for just one model of gun .
If a Whitworth bullet goes FFFFFFrrrrrThwack then that proves once and for all Sedgewick was shot with an Enfield bullet ! :haha:

 

[Artificer]

PS - an incoming Whitworth bullet goes FFFFFFFFFFFrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrTHWACK. Just thought you'd like to know.

Is this from hearing the bullets going overhead when one is down below the path of the bullet and in what we in the U.S. call "the butts," with the rounds going overhead and into a target?

The reason I ask is because that is a very good description of what one hears in that position.

Gus

 

[TFoley]

How else?

I'm too young to have been in your recent civil war, and although I'm young enough to have been shot at over in Northern Ireland, the locals there had many fine modern guns provided by their American and Libyan allies, and had no need of muzzleloading rifles to shoot at us.

tac

 

[TFoley]

Dodger - it is my opinion that the rather odd noise of the Whitworth bullet is due to its unusual shape. On occasions, when the weather is right, there is a short contrail visible along the track of the bullet - at 1000 and 1200 yards, the bullet is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY up there, and then suddenly pitches down into the backstop. I'm guessing, not having my ballistic calculator about my person, that it reaches as much as couple of hundred feet - maybe more - before it comes down.

'Little artillery' in every respect.

Perhaps some kind person with the programme could advise us what a .451 [across flats] 500gr bullet with a m/v of 1270 fps and a BC of .311 or so might take as a trajectory. :idunno:

tac

PS - Pedersoli do not have any kind of hammer forging barrel production facility.

 

[dodger]

PS - Pedersoli do not have any kind of hammer forging barrel production facility.

I think that you're right , if Pedersoli had such a facility I'm sure they would be happy to tell the world about it .
However , I have found out after just a little bit of digging, that Sabatti , [also situated in the same town as Pedersoli] , DO have a hammer forging operation and they state quite categorically that they produce barrels for other companies . They are also suppliers to the Italian Firearms Group , as is Pedersoli .
https://youtu.be/UHjwWlh3dTw
I have looked at the markings on the barrel of my gun , hoping to see a Sabatti mark somewhere , alas the only markings are the date stamp , proof marks , serial number and the Pedersoli etching .

It's not hard to imagine a deal being done on the golf course , resulting in good old Guiseppe jumping in the Piaggio Ape and hurtling across town to pick up a box o' barrels for the Pedersoli lads to slap together a bunch of Whitworths rifles ,after a good siesta of course. :rotf:

Keep your eye on the bull .

 

[Artificer]

How else?

I'm too young to have been in your recent civil war, and although I'm young enough to have been shot at over in Northern Ireland, the locals there had many fine modern guns provided by their American and Libyan allies, and had no need of muzzleloading rifles to shoot at us.

tac

OK, sorry you had to serve in Northern Ireland and I assure you there I have no love lost for filthy terrorists who bombed innocent women and children, but that may help with the point I am trying to make.

I don't know about you, but the sounds of rounds going past me close by sounded much different than the sounds of the same guns shot and when I was in the butts on a target range. Yes, there was often a small sonic boom after they passed by, but didn't really sound the same as when I was in the butts. I wonder if you had the same experience?

The point I am getting at is the acoustics on a battlefield is different than when one is down in the butts at a target range.

To tie this into the article I linked earlier where McMahon wrote about the "shrill whistle" of the rounds before Sedgwick was hit, and since it has since been found that no Confederate Troops had Whitworth's there on that part of the battlefield, then the shrill whistles of the rounds had to come from Enfield Rifle Muskets. They don't sound like that when down in the butts on a target range.

So I'm not so sure whether a Whitworth was being used or not, could have been discerned on a battlefield of the era by sound alone.

Gus

 

[TFoley]

Well, if he heard the 'shrill whistle' then he could have also heard the Ffffrrrretc.

I've been pulling targets at long range shoots for many years, and I'd agree about the Enfield sounds being quite distinct. The range I usually shoot at long distances here is a 1200 yarder, and has a very open glacis - even the pit slot is around fifteen feet wide before the long open slope of the backstop, itself around sixty feet high. You can really hear stuff going overhead and being grateful that you weren't on any kind of a battlefield.

I once stood at the bottom of the field of Gettysburg, and looked up at where the Union had been dug in at the top of Cemetery Ridge and wondered how men could walk up there in the heat of a July day, getting shot to s**t all the way.

tac

 

[pchwcf50110]

The word a couple years ago was that Pedersoli bought the all the tooling including the barrel making machines from Euro Arms who had bought it from Parker Hale. I have both an original PH Birmingham and Euro Arms Italian versions of the Whitworth and Volunteer rifles. Although the PH rifles have nicer wood, locks, sights and a little better fit/finish the Euro arms rifle are good quality. They shoot just as good as the PH rifles. The Pedersoli rifle I handled has very nice fit and finish.