Penetration and expansion

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I'd imagine that most of you have seen this but it might be worth a go any way. I've used this ballistic buffalo for some of my centerfire rifles but have yet to try it with Black powder.[url] http://www.fieldandstream.com/fieldstream/shooting/rifles/article/0,13199,1183295,00.html[/url]
 
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Hitman said:
I'd imagine that most of you have seen this but it might be worth a go any way. I've used this ballistic buffalo for some of my centerfire rifles but have yet to try it with Black powder.[url] http://www.fieldandstream.com...ifles/article/0,13199,1183295,00.html[/quote][/url]

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This thread has evolved into a projectile specific thread, so I moved it to the Shooting Accessories section where it can frolic and play with the other projectile topics...

What do projectiles do at Accessories Land?
They laugh & jump & play (they do!)
Shout & crow, scream & grow
Jolly times have they :haha:
 
While penetration tests are interesting and beneficial,I find an expansion test useful aswell.I borrowed an idea from Dr.Sam Fadala and built a bullet box,as it were.It is merely a wooden box, open at the top, to allow the insertion and retrieval of test mediums.I have a rather large galvanized tin tub(for washing me dogs) and will soak several thick phone books for 24 hours.I will place these into the bullet box and fire at it from whatever distances I wish to test.These wetted phone books, I am told, effectively simulate muscle tissue.I have, on occasion been known to buy a side of ribs to fire through to simulate bone matter aswell( not often, due to the expense!Wink,wink,knudge,knudge!).This bullet box allows one to recover the spent ball for recasting and to determine how it held together,see the expansion or lack thereof,and draw semi-scientific conclusions to the future performance of a particular load at a specific distance.As far as I can see, shooting at trees, allows one to determine how thick a tree one of our ancestors would have needed to provide cover from incoming fire.While interesting, it is not particularly indicative on the performance the said ball would provide in the persuit of game.Best regards,J.A.
 
Your right JA, trees have nothing to do with shooting game. I also have a similar box that I've used for 20 , 30 yrs. It's an old Ice chest with part of one end cut out and that area covered with rubber for an outside skin. It can be filled with paper, magazines, etc. and water for expansion and penetration test. Works great.
However, that has nothing to do with my original query of "Why didn't this ball expand" and my thinking now is that aspen is just too soft, doesn't offer enough resistance.
 
People being made of so much water I'd think jugs of it would work also, think I'll try some of this out next week. Fred :hatsoff:
 
fw said:
People being made of so much water I'd think jugs of it would work also, think I'll try some of this out next week. Fred :hatsoff:

Water isn't a good indicator of tissue. It's hard to recover a ball fired into jugs of water to check expansion. It sure is fun tho. :thumbsup:
 
Penetration and expansion tests are good when working up a load. I don't use them because I know how my loads work in all my rifles I hunt with. I used to do a lot of metal detecting around C.W. battlefields and campgrounds. I dug up a lot of fired bullets and would sit and look at them and wonder what they hit. Some of them were and still are puzzling so I set out shooting a lot of lead at trees, iron, gravel, fence posts all kinds of stuff even old deserted houses. With the owners permission of course. Lemme tell ya a wood frame house is no protection from a minie ball. Even fired from a couple hundred yards it'll got thru several walls unless it impacts a stud.
 
There are two things we want to know in doing terminal ballistics testing and that is both expansion, and depth of penetration. You can find out how much expansion a bullet fired at a given velocity at a determined distance by simply firing into sand bags. Lead, and even alloy lead and copper jackets perform fairly uniformly in this medium, and from observation of recovered bullets from animals, expand much the same.

However, penetration is quite another thing. Ballistics gelletin is probably the best medium for comparing expansion, particular when shooting thin skinned targets such as human torsos. There are enough expanded bullets recovered from human bodies, alive and dead, to know how deep bullets travel through human flesh. The same is pretty well known with light skinned animals like deer.

The problam for such research has always been with predicting penetration on heavy boned, thick skinned animals. Tradition has it that only solid, large caliber bullets going at moderate velocities can be counted on fully penetrating something the size of a large bear, or buffalo. High speed, light weight bullets, that are designed to expand rapidly do not do so well. We all pretty well understand and know that. Its everything in between that gives us pause or pulls hairs!

Over the years I have tried lots of medium for testing penetration and expansion. It took awhile for me to figure out I get more predicatble results if I don't try to do both at once.

If you have never killed a deer with anything, then find a friend who has. See if he, or someone else he knows has kept a ball or bullet recovered from the dead animal. Then ask about the original caliber, load, and distance to the animal when it was shot. Pick your penetration medium. Use logs if you must, but I have used boards to good effect, as well as wet newspaper, dry newspaper, etc. Borrow the friends gun and load the gun with the same load he used to shoot the deer. Fire it into your test medium. You know that particular load did not penetrate the deer, and from his description of the wound channel, you also know approximately how far the ball traveled through the deer. Use that as your standard for comparing everything else.

Once you have that comparison standard, any medium you choose is likely to tell you within a few inches just how far a particular ball or bullet and load will penetrate flesh. I found, after much testing, that penetration was more a function of the weight of a ball or bullet, than its velocity, as the old rule, faster bullets slow down faster seemed to work on penetration tests, too.

As for expansion, I believe that the reason the ball did not expand in the live aspen tree is because the tree was ALIVE ! I fired a .45-70 405 grain bullet into a fresh elm tree stump at approx. 15 meet, and the bullet penetrated about 17 inches, but only 13 inches in a straight line, about 2 inches into the tree, the bullet decided to follow a growth ring and made an arc around the tree. The bullet did not expand. It was about 1/8 inch shorter, and was reduced to .43 caliber, but you could still see the grease grooves. Velocity was at 1200fps. I have recovered that same bullet, using the same load from dirt and it mushrooms very well. I have seen similar bullets removed, or recovered from, large game, and they also were mushroomed.

My conclusion is that live trees often resist bullet expansion, UNLESS you are shooting a high speed bullet, designed for quick expansion with a hollow point, or hollow nose construction. At the very least, you should fire more than one bullet into a test medium and look at your averages before making any conclusions.

Paul
 
rebel727 said:
fw said:
People being made of so much water I'd think jugs of it would work also, think I'll try some of this out next week. Fred :hatsoff:

Water isn't a good indicator of tissue. It's hard to recover a ball fired into jugs of water to check expansion. It sure is fun tho. :thumbsup:
I agree that water is probably not the best medium to simulate tissue...but I will say that for basic comparison purposes like checking one powder charge against another, at least water is exactly the same every time for repeatability, and quick/simple to set up.

One way I've learned to find projectiles that has worked so far is to lay out a big vinyl tarp and line up more plastic jugs of water than you think you need in the middle of it, six heavy plastic gallon jugs at a minimum.
 
Just the way I do it and it works. Ive been asking Gary about his "Sharpshooter book comeing out and he's led me to some good spots to ck What i'd like to know is how in the Rev War Yanks could kill a horse at 400 yards shooting at the rider if kill range now days is 100 yds or closer? I always belived the rifles from then are small bore, 30 to 40 cal , it takes a lot to drop a horse at that range. Talk about penetration :shocked2: Fred :hatsoff:
 
I used to think expansion and penetration were mutually exclusive. If you had a lot of one, you didn't have much of the other. Then I tested some bullets that didn't give me much of either! Now I'm thoroghly confused. :confused:
 
I don't know a lot about the Revolution but it's my understanding the colonists did use a lot of small bores with rifled barrels. People back then knew how to shoot with those guns because it was all they had. People now think bp rifles are way underpowered but most of us here know better. I've seen posts where some modern day shooters use way less powder so naturally their range is going to be shortened. They may not trust themselves to make long shots with open sights or whatever. I'm not knocking their practices, they use what works for them. I know a guy on another forum that took a running deer at 200 yds. with his flinter.
 
Paul,

I have always thought a bullet should never stay in a deer, if it does, you need more powder or a bigger ball.[or get closer] Optimal performance is when the ball just drops out the far side.

Bruce
 
Bruce, you have a point. But I would rather that ball break the off foreleg after penetrating both lungs, and some of the aortas, if not the heart, and remain under the skin on the off shoulder. Such a shot keep the deer from running very far( downhill) so it dies fairly close to where I shot it, and not down at the bottom of a ravine where I need two extra men and a boy to get the carcass up and out of the field. My first couple of deer saw the ball completely penetrate, breaking ribs, and the spine on one each, before exiting. The one with the two borken ribs left blood on both sides of the tracks but managed to reach the bottom of the ravine, which made for a 20 story climb to get the carcass from where she fell, up over the top of the hill to go down 20 stories to the road where my car was parked. I was only about a mile from the car measured in a straight line, but that darn hill almost killed us.
 
Slamfire I think we all are at one time or another when it comes to this stuff. Ive got a friend well did years ago, that got shot with a Blackhack 44mag at around 7' to 10' 1 of the 2 or 3 shoots went right thru his heart (he's maybe 6'5" 275 lbs) I and everyone else knew he was going to die, and 8 days later he walked out of the hospital :shocked2: as the DRs put it. he was shot so close none of the energy stayed in him because he was so close. Go figure :confused: Fred :hatsoff:
 
fw said:
Slamfire I think we all are at one time or another when it comes to this stuff. Ive got a friend well did years ago, that got shot with a Blackhack 44mag at around 7' to 10' 1 of the 2 or 3 shoots went right thru his heart (he's maybe 6'5" 275 lbs) I and everyone else knew he was going to die, and 8 days later he walked out of the hospital :shocked2: as the DRs put it. he was shot so close none of the energy stayed in him because he was so close. Go figure :confused: Fred :hatsoff:


Just goes to show ya dont mess around with BIG JIM! :hmm: :shocked2:

Davy
 
paulvallandigham said:
Bruce, you have a point. But I would rather that ball break the off foreleg after penetrating both lungs, and some of the aortas, if not the heart, and remain under the skin on the off shoulder. Such a shot keep the deer from running very far( downhill) so it dies fairly close to where I shot it, and not down at the bottom of a ravine where I need two extra men and a boy to get the carcass up and out of the field. My first couple of deer saw the ball completely penetrate, breaking ribs, and the spine on one each, before exiting. The one with the two borken ribs left blood on both sides of the tracks but managed to reach the bottom of the ravine, which made for a 20 story climb to get the carcass from where she fell, up over the top of the hill to go down 20 stories to the road where my car was parked. I was only about a mile from the car measured in a straight line, but that darn hill almost killed us.

And if they were carrying one of my 7 ga. balls, that would give them another 1000 grans to carry around. Probably would make them run sideways. :grin:

But: When the ball falls out the far side of the should, after breaking it, and hits the deer in the foot, that would also be broken! :rotf:
 
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