Percussion or Flintlock?

[Thejeepster]

I am going to get me another Pedersoli Traditional Hawken Rifle in .54 cal as I have already got one for my adult son but I am kind of thinking of getting it in Flintlock.

Should I go Percussion or Flintlock. Are they both as reliable?

I want to try flintlock but don't know if they are as good of shooter as a percussion.

I posted this in the percussion to get a fair evaluation. If I would have put this in the flintlock section they would all vote flintlock.

 

[Vaino]

To make a flintlock as reliable as a caplock requires a quality flintlock to start and then some knowledge as to what makes a flintlock go bang.

I've shot both a lot and my preference is a flintlock, but the lock has been tuned by me and operates flawlessly but for the average person, a caplock is more reliable.

Just put a cap on the nipple after loading and you're set. A flintlock's loading is the same and in lieu of a cap, priming powder is poured into the pan. But then there's more complications....the flint has to be sharp, the frizzen must be the req'd hardness, the touch hole has to be open and the lock has to function properly. Many more factors to contend w/ than simply putting a cap on the nipple.

A flintlock can be as reliable as a caplock....just takes more understanding of what is req'd to do so.....Fred

 

[wayne terry]

I choose the percussion lock in rifles they don't call em flintchlocks for nothing but for a smothbore I like flint personaly just never could get use to one to amount to anything but practise make perfect and there are a lot of people out there and one this forum who could prob. outshoot me with their flinters with me shooting the cap.

 

[necchi]

As flehto describes there's a learning curve.
But once you have it down, it's just another routine.
What's key is a quality lock.
For what it's worth, I have seen a lot of Pedersoli flint lock owners struggle with reliability.

 

[Ken Cormier]

After reading the topic of this post I JUST had to put in my :2 go flintlock those cappy things are just a passing fad. They will never catch on.

 

[54ball]

I am going to get me another Pedersoli Traditional Hawken Rifle in .54 cal

I assume you mean the Thompson Center Clone like the Cabelas Hawken since Pedersoli has taken over the production of those.

They make a great hunting rifle in percussion. For about the same coinage is the Lyman Trade Rifle. A little more, there is the Great Plains which looks more like the double keyed mid 1800s Hawken heavy mountain rifles, then there is the Rocky Mountain and Missouri Hawkens, that have the heft and shape closer too the mid 1800 Hawkens. All are very good in percussion with the Rocky Mountain and Missouri coming close to Custom quality, in percussion that is.

In flint they rate OK to pretty good. Honestly the lower end Traditions guns do well in percussion, some struggle in flint... some are pretty good if the buyer is lucky.

If period Correct is your desire, all the plains and mountain types mentioned are really cap era rifles.

Honestly I lean towards the Rocky Mountain or Missouri for a caplock Hawken. I can't see you regretting it. Even though it's double of whay you had in mind.

A few years ago I would have recommended the Lyman GPR new in percussion without question, but sadly the price has gone up on these while the quality has gone down. A good used one of those maybe an option for you.

My honest opinion is if you want a flintlock, consider buying a used custom with a Chambers or Siler lock. Sometimes you can get a imperfect but very good rifle by a new builder for about the same in parts.

As always do the research especially for higher quality and historical accuracy.

The best Pedersoli flintlocks by far are the muskets like the Brown Bess.
For a Rifle...The Frontier/Blue Ridge is the only Pedersoli rifle I would truly consider in flintlock.

Then there is TVM...Then custom.

 

[Grenadier1758]

As others have already said, for a flintlock, its all about the lock.

An important question to be asked, is what is the availability of black powder in your home area? Flintlocks will not fire the substitutes with any degree of reliability. So if finding black powder is a problem, then go with the caplock.

 

[Alden]

OMG, where are all the Hawken experts? How many Hawkens are there in flintlock at The Fur of the Museum Trade!?

 

[nchawkeye]

I bought my first flintlock in 1977, have never owned a percussion gun...The fist shooting match I ever went to, I was told I would be shooting against percussions so I would be at a disadvantage...I won that match and several more...

I've hunted with guys that owned percussions that had the cap pop and no ignition, I've never had my flintlock fail to fire on a deer when hunting...

The difference??? It's a custom made flinter made by the late Bob Watts, it's absolutely reliable and has been from day one...Those that have problems have lower quality guns...Those that think flintlocks are flinchlocks have never fired a properly made flintlock...

If you have a sharp flint, dry powder and an open touch hole this gun is going to fire, no delayed ignition, it's just that simple...

If it's a production gun, all bets are off...

 

[tenngun]

:stir: :haha:
Ok putting a flint on them "hawkins" tait right, as far as hc is concerened. non hc its handy and a flinter. I like flint and will tell you that you can learn them for the basics quickly. Not as quick as a cap but not years. The years are all the little stuff and fine tunning. You have to have Black powder with a flinter where you can use fake powder with a cap, so supplies can be easier to find. how ever once you start ducking flint chips them cap guns just aint as fun.

 

[ncmtmike]

I shot a cap gun when I was a young'n but nows that I grown I use the rock-lock :blah:

 

[stantdm]

I have both but am more recent to the flintlock. Mine is a quality gun, the lock is a Chambers, the flints are good ones. In a hunting environment where its windy, raining, snowing, or anything other than calm I want the cap lock. When I get more experience maybe that will change but for now the percussion is my choice.

 

[gwalker]

Like MtMike, I started in the late 1970s with a caplock - CVA mountain rifle. But within few short years, I learned better and built my own custom American flintlock rifle (Lancaster style) 30 years ago, with a large Siler Lock, and I am still shooting the same rifle several times a week today. There is more to hunting than just killing an antelope, deer, or elk. My flintlock not only heightened the challenge of the hunt but instilled within me a greater appreciation for those longhunters of the 1700s and the trappers/hunters of the Rocky Mountains in the first half of the 19th century. Even today, in town and out in the countryside, I run into people that are amazed that there are still people around that shoot those old style of guns that were so important in the winning of our revolution and the formation of our country. I at one time would go into the local grade schools when the students were studying Wyoming history (4th grade) to put on a talk/demonstration of the skills, equipment, and rifles of those young men during the fur trade era. Although they were always excited with the demonstration of my rifle, their most interesting part of my talk and demonstration to the students and adults alike, was my demonstration of fire starting with flint and steel. The girls were always most impressed when after I got flames started in my tinder, I'd fold my hand around flaming tinder to extinguish the flames. The boys were always heard to mutter, 'I could've done that.'

Speaking for myself, I'll never go back to shooting a caplock rifle. Its like when as a young man I learned to fly fish, I have never gone back to using spinning outfits or baits. The flintlock can be learned (see Eric Byes new publication, 'Flintlocks, A Practical Guide for their Use and Appreciation.' Also, I've yet to come across a veteran flintlock shooter that wasn't willing to take under their wing anyone who was getting started in shooting a flintlock rifle. If your intrigued with shooting a flintlock rifle, take the plunge; I don't think you'll ever regret the decision. Just get a rifle with a good barrel and lock; especially the lock. Jim Chambers (Siler Locks) has one, if not the best, reputation for lock design and function.

 

[Zonie]

If you have a good source for real black powder available, the flintlock is a strong contender.

If you don't, it looses most of its attractiveness.

Here's the deal.
Flintlocks need real black powder in the pan to even begin to be reliable. Without it, the priming powder in the pan will sometimes catch fire from a spark but it won't give a good fast flame that's needed to ignite the main powder charge.
The synthetic "black powders substitutes" in the priming pan often won't even ignite from just the sparks from the flint hitting the frizzen.

Black powder is also needed in the barrel.

If you are using a synthetic "black powder" in the barrel by itself with a prime of real black powder in the pan, the flash of the pan powder often won't ignite the main powder charge in the barrel.

Some makers of synthetic black powder claim their powder will work in a flintlock but in fine print it will also say you must load 10 grains of real black powder into the barrel before adding the rest of the powder charge using their synthetic powder.

The times I've tried pouring Pyrodex down the barrel and getting it to fire without a starter black powder charge under it has been about once in three tries.

A percussion gun on the other hand can use the synthetic black powder substitutes and the worst of them will just cause a momentary delay before they will fire.

Yes, a lot of our members will say, "Well, if you don't have someone in your area that sells real black powder, you can just order some on the web."

While they are right, not everyone wants to order a large amount of black powder shipped to their home.

Shipping real black powder requires a Hazardous Material fee in addition to the regular shipping charge.
This fee covers any amount of black powder from 1 pound to 50 pounds. I think its about $25 now but it may be higher.

What this amounts to is if you order 1 pound of powder you will pay the powder cost (let's say $16/pound) + the $25 Haz Mat fee + shipping of lets say, $6. That makes the pound of powder cost $47.
If you shoot 70 grain powder loads that gives you about 100 shots @ $47 = 47 cents per shot just for powder.

If you order 10 pounds of powder at the above price that equals (10 X 16) + $25 Haz Mat + lets say $12 shipping for a total of $197 or, $19.70/pound.

Like I say, not everyone wants to put that much money into gunpowder.

I went thru all of this because many gun stores refuse to sell real black powder.
The reason is there is not that big of a demand for it, they must have a Federal License to sell an explosive, their insurance company may refuse to insure their store and they must have a special locked locker that meets Federal requirements. Some States also pile on more regulations.

Gun stores (or big box stores) cannot put the black powder out on a shelf with the other powders either so you will have to ask them if they have it.
Ask the owner. Many of the clerks in the gun stores won't even know they sell it.

To sum up. If you have a supply of real black powder available then go for the flintlock. They are a challenging, interesting, satisfying (when they fire which is not guaranteed) gun.

If buying black powder is out of the question, buy another caplock.

 

[Rick Boylan]

Just my personal opinion but, I'd go flintlock. I own a CVA Hawken percussion and love it. I recently bought a Pedersoli Kentucky Flintlock. I'm hooked on the flintlock. It was reliable and accurate. And I love shooting it. I enjoy shooing my caplock but it sure is a bit dull after getting into a rocklock.

 

[Thejeepster]

Thanks for the replies guys as you have given me much food for thought.

I do not yet know what I will be getting next but I know for a fact I will someday get me a flintlock just for the experience.

 

[AZbpBurner]

You want a flintlock, and you know that you do.

Consider a Lyman Deerstalker. Not much cash outlay, and it is a reliable rifle that will perform to your satisfaction, and is easy to set up and shoot.

If you like it, you can always upgrade to some snooty-tooty custom rifle that may look better, but likely won't shoot much better.

I can bust grapefruit a1 100 yards all day long with my .54 flint Deerstalker, and ignition is quick, positive and reliable.

 

[Ron_T.]

I did a "quick read" of the other's posts here to make sure I wasn't repeating what has already been written and what I'm gonna mention hasn't been mentioned prior to this post (as far as I can tell)... so here goes:

I have 2 older CVA Hawken caplocks (percussion cap rifles) plus a flint-lock in a Traditions "Shenandoah" (33½" barrel) Pennsylvania Long Rifle. All the rifles are .50 caliber with double-set triggers and, fortunately, all 3 rifles shoot the same loads (target loads and hunting loads) with equal accuracy and ease.

I enjoy shooting both types of rifles, but more and more, I prefer shooting the percussion cap Hawken rifles because they have easily removable barrels (for cleaning) compared to the Shenandoah.

Wedges hold the barrels in the 2 Hawken caplock rifles whereas small pins hold the barrel in the Shenandoah flinter.

With the Hawken caplocks, I merely remove the wedge holding the barrel in place, take the barrel out of it's stock and put the base of the barrel in a bucket of hot water plus a little liquid dish soap and in a few minutes, the barrel is totally clean, rinsed and dried out via my small air-compressor plus the heat left over from the very hot water used to clean the barrel... and ready to put back into it's stock once the stock is also cleaned out well.

With the Shenandoah flinter, it seems to be a lot more trouble to clean the barrel after shooting it because it's a lot more trouble to remove the barrel and, as a result, I don't remove it, but clean it "the hard way" by putting expensive, foaming black powder bore cleaner in the barrel and then, lay the rifle on it's side and let the whole rifle lay there for an hour or so to allow the bore cleaner to "work".

Then, once the bore cleaner has worked, I just rinse-out the barrel with hot water which tends to run all over the wooden stock if I don't put a round toothpick in the flash hole... or if I do put a round toothpick in the flash hole just above the frizzen pan, then there's always the question as to whether or not the flash-channel has been cleaned out well... and is clear of debris.

Considering the large "difference" in the amount of time and effort it is to clean both types of rifles, I've grown to much prefer the caplock to the flintlock for cleaning even though shooting the flintlock is a tad more "fun" and the "flash-in-the-pan" upon firing the flinter has never bothered me as it seems to bother some shooters.

As others have mentioned, the flinter requires a bit more "attention" to some things prior or while loading the rifle in order for the flinter to fire reliably, but once learned, these "necessary requirements" are easily accomplished and I've found the flintlock is only very, VERY slightly slower-to-fire once the trigger is pulled than the caplocks. In fact, few could tell the small "difference" in "firing timing", but I can detect it since I do a lot of black powder shooting. However, there's not enough "difference" to cause one to choose one lock over the other, in my opinion.

What others have said about man-made black powders is very true. While caplocks will usually shoot most man-made black powder just fine, the flintlocks need REAL black powder to successfully fire with any consistency. However, that isn't a "problem" for me since I have a source for REAL black powder and use real black powder (both Goex and Swiss FFFg) in all three rifles.

However, it truly IS a tad more fun to shoot the flinters than to shoot the caplocks. Perhaps that's because one must first "conquer" the real "differences" in the need to be a bit more precise in the procedures you use when loading and shooting flinters than when loading and shooting caplocks. However, once conquered, the "fun shooting" goes to the flinters by a bit more than a "small" margin.

In truth, other than for loading at the muzzle, caplocks really seem to shoot about like center-fire rifles whereas flinters seem to be more "traditional" in the way they shoot. At least, that's my "take" on the subject. :wink:

This is just my 2¢... and worth what it cost ya. (Nothing) :rotf: :grin:

Keep yer powder "dry"...


Strength and Honor...

Ron T.

 

[stinkyfeet]

If ya want a flintlock get the pedersoli frontier or Cableas blue ridge same gun great quality and great sparking guns. I love ALL 3 of mine. And if ya don't like the flintlock buy a replacement percussion lock and drum and in a few minutes you have a percussion gun and can sell the flint lock and liner on here with no trouble. Its a much better quality gun too, and its a long gun 39 inch barrel full stock but yet still a light weight gun.

 

[stinkyfeet]

Or get the percussion gun, then order the flintlock and liner from flintlocks.etc when ready then heyyy or buy one of each.