Percussion Wheel Gun Accuracy

[Jim in Wisconsin]

Somewhere in this thread someone talked about reaming the cylinder. My old Navy Arms Rem. 44 has cylinders that measure .444 and the small diameter of the barrel very close to the same. The ball evidently can just slide right down the bore without engaging the rifling I suppose. It seems like reaming the cylinders to a larger diameter would make sense, at least down as far as the ball would sit.
What size should they be and where would I get a reamer of that size? 29/64 is around that size, but not so easy to find.

 

[M. De Land]

Somewhere in this thread someone talked about reaming the cylinder. My old Navy Arms Rem. 44 has cylinders that measure .444 and the small diameter of the barrel very close to the same. The ball evidently can just slide right down the bore without engaging the rifling I suppose. It seems like reaming the cylinders to a larger diameter would make sense, at least down as far as the ball would sit.
What size should they be and where would I get a reamer of that size? 29/64 is around that size, but not so easy to find.

All you really need is a chucking reamer and Granger will have them in the size you will need. Generally speaking for good accuracy you want the chamber mouths to be at or no more than .001 larger than your barrels groove diameter.
If you cannot find a chucking reamer of correct diameter and have some machine skills one can make there own reamers with a bit of work. I've made quite a few half reamers for various tasks like barrel chambers and loading dies. Fluted reamers take me allot more time though so if possible I purchase them.

 

[M. De Land]

If you are interested in maximizing accuracy, then you'll have to do a load workup. If you're interested in maximum bang, you will have to settle for what accuracy you get.

I have a Euroarms Remington 1858 Navy. Despite load workups, I never got good accuracy from it. Same with the Pietta Spiller and Burr.

Could be chamber alignment but generally accuracy will perk up with a crown re-cut, forcing cone , chamber mouth ream and barrel lap to remove any tight spots that all these reproduction guns seem to have..

 

[Bad Karma]

Somewhere in this thread someone talked about reaming the cylinder. My old Navy Arms Rem. 44 has cylinders that measure .444 and the small diameter of the barrel very close to the same. The ball evidently can just slide right down the bore without engaging the rifling I suppose. It seems like reaming the cylinders to a larger diameter would make sense, at least down as far as the ball would sit.
What size should they be and where would I get a reamer of that size? 29/64 is around that size, but not so easy to find.

Listen to @M. De Land here^ wrt undersized chambers, I’ve had decent success using a fairly thick card wad, (.062” seems to stick in my memory) beneath the ball until I could get the chambers reamed. the card will help prevent blowby until the ball obdurates up to bore size. It’s not ideal but can turn a minute of five gallon bucket pistol into a minute of pop can shooter… it’s cheap and worth a shot.

 

[Bad Karma]

Anybody have the Cliff's Notes version of this?

Haha i lov going through these threads! So much good info!

More interesting info here. Good thoughts.

These things are not as simple to shoot accurately as I'd assumed. Obviously. But this is great fun.



Thank you for validating my online existence.



"Pest control"? Exactly what "pests" are you shooting that require 300+ FPE?

(I use a .25 cal FX Wildcat PCP air rifle for "pests" up to coyotes. It puts out about 45 FPE at the muzzle. It also shoots 3/8" groups at 50 yards.)



Most guys run when shot at by anything, hit or not. The BP guns have the sparks & smoke effect too - I've thought about this. I think it would add to the scare factor!

(Guys, admit it: How many of you BP revolver shooters have not fantasized about blasting a bad guy at some point? Ever shoot those round balls into ballistic gel? They expand beautifully! I haven't done it myself, just watched the vids.)



I would not expect a modern semi-auto Glock or the like to be able to group better than 12" at 50Y. The barrel floats, it is short, high recoil makes it difficult to get consistency, etc.



I use Wonder Wads and would sure hate to mess with malt-o-meal or the like.

I also realized that while I said 25 grains I haven't seriously target-shot that load. My paper-punching was with 15 and 20 grain loads.

If having the cylinder short-stuffed is bad because 1) the powder can't be compressed fully and/or 2) the bullet has to go through a long length of bad-diameter/unrifled cylinder, these loads may be less accurate.

Also, I have NOT been shaving a ring with the Hornady .375 balls. The .380s from Track of the Wolf are on the way.

I also now have my cool tiny funnels for loading with no spilling, and a capper for more consistent - capping.

I expect much better results next time I punch the paper.

A good friend has taken to carrying a Glock 9mm. (He’s a life long friend and local county Sheriff so I can overlook the character flaw this seems to indicate.) anyway, we spent an enjoyable afternoon plinking at bowling pins at 100 yards with a few of the modern semi autos. None of the escaped unscathed and I am sure glad I’m not an evildoer in his jurisdiction… at least within a hundred fifty yards of that buscadero…

Now here i have to go along with 45D. I mostly buy Pietta's for that one reason. The arbor is usually excellent on them. I dont know why Uberti doesn't fix the arbor problem. Here are my thoughts, Pietta finish not quite as good as Uberti, however the arbor fit and finish is better than Uberti's. For that reason i usually buy Pietta. Pietta's fit and finish is a hell of a lot better now adays. My stainless NMA is damn near perfect. The two cylinders fit perfectly. Now i know we are talking open top but i had to throw this in. Now here is my final thoughts, before i take a nap, if the weapon i buy is strickly for collection I dont bother with the arbor. If these are for shooting, I definately fix the arbor and timing. I am one for the stressed look so a total refinish is not in the books for any weapon i own.

I hope your nap was everything it needed to be brother! Someday I’m going to retire. I swear!

 

[maillemaker]

Could be chamber alignment but generally accuracy will perk up with a crown re-cut, forcing cone , chamber mouth ream and barrel lap to remove any tight spots that all these reproduction guns seem to have..

I actually purchased the tool and executed an 11-degree forcing cone job on the Spiller and Burr. I think it actually shot worse afterwards!

Perhaps one day I will set out to be able to do all of those jobs on a revolver.

I currently have a revolver off with Charlie Hahn to rebarrel and do the rest of his magic.

 

[45D]

I actually purchased the tool and executed an 11-degree forcing cone job on the Spiller and Burr. I think it actually shot worse afterwards!

Perhaps one day I will set out to be able to do all of those jobs on a revolver.

I currently have a revolver off with Charlie Hahn to rebarrel and do the rest of his magic.

That is more likely to happen with ball shooters. A ball needs to engage the rifling as soon as it leaves the chamber. If "too much" of a forcing cone is available, the ball is "free" or can rotate which will introduce the "bearing surface" (cylindrical sides of the ball made at loading) off axis. You may get better accuracy using conicals at this point.

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

I actually purchased the tool and executed an 11-degree forcing cone job on the Spiller and Burr. I think it actually shot worse afterwards!

Perhaps one day I will set out to be able to do all of those jobs on a revolver.

I currently have a revolver off with Charlie Hahn to rebarrel and do the rest of his magic.

I goofed in my thread when I said to cut 11 degrees in the cone. It should be about 8 degrees for ball and 11 for bullets. I have the 8 degree and will use it on the 60 I'm working over. Generally I have found good accuracy when the ball bites into the rifling at about half it's diameter into the cone.
I just went out to check my cone cutters for ball shooting and I mis-remembered. The angle for balls is 18 degrees not 8 as I said above.

 

[M. De Land]

I goofed in my thread when I said to cut 11 degrees in the cone. It should be about 8 degrees for ball and 11 for bullets. I have the 8 degree and will use it on the 60 I'm working over. Generally I have found good accuracy when the ball bites into the rifling at about half it's diameter into the cone.
I just went out to check my cone cutters for ball shooting and I mis-remembered. The angle for balls is 18 degrees not 8 as I said above.

One point that some may be interested to know is that when a cone or muzzle crown angle is given this figure is always and encluded angle not acute meaning both sides added together. In an 18 degree cone angle each side of the forcing cone will be angled into the bore 9 degrees.

 

[PaulF70]

A good friend has taken to carrying a Glock 9mm. (He’s a life long friend and local county Sheriff so I can overlook the character flaw this seems to indicate.) anyway, we spent an enjoyable afternoon plinking at bowling pins at 100 yards with a few of the modern semi autos. None of the escaped unscathed and I am sure glad I’m not an evildoer in his jurisdiction… at least within a hundred fifty yards of that buscadero…

What kind of holdover for 100Y shooting with a 9MM? I could plug in the numbers but thought I'd ask. It must be pretty crazy.

P.S. I agree re: liking Glocks being a character flaw! Hate those things. Give me a class SA/DA semi-auto, no strikers.

 

[Bad Karma]

What kind of holdover for 100Y shooting with a 9MM? I could plug in the numbers but thought I'd ask. It must be pretty crazy.

P.S. I agree re: liking Glocks being a character flaw! Hate those things. Give me a class SA/DA semi-auto, no strikers.

I’ll respond in a PM since this is far outside of the subject of these forums.

 

[Stantheman86]

100 yards really isn't all that far, it just seems like it.

I just did a thread where I fired .36 Navies to 100 and I spent an afternoon shooting long range 100-200 with a pair of Walkers from a sandbag. Accuracy was surprisingly good. The Walkers can splash dirt on the 300 yard backstop with the right sight alignment. It's easier to move the front sight up in your sight picture so you can still see the target rather than trying to hold high. My sight picture was the rear hammer notch, the barrel, and then the muzzle, pretty much. Some of the 300 yard steel swingers were scared but I didn't hit any that day. I do believe it's easily possible with the Walker or a Dragoon if you practiced.

Not to get too far off topic but when I was a Nuclear Plant guard, shooting our Glock 40's to 100 to hit steel targets with frangible ammo was part of our training. We did it so we would know what our sidearms were capable of in an emergency if we had to shoot at a threat from longer ranges. Even people with little to no background in shooting quickly learned how to regularly hit at 100 yards.

 

[PaulF70]

100Y is close for a rifle, far for a handgun with a 4" sightline and open sights!

 

[Stantheman86]

I deep dived long range handgun shooting, and the "mechanical accuracy" of handguns is shocking.

I narrowly lost a $100 pot at work, on Range Qual day when some of the "gun guys" threw some money in after we were done qualifying and we fired our 4" S&W 64 .38's in Single Action at the paper plates that came with the pizza we ordered, stapled to the 100 yard target backers. 12 rounds, and all of us hit some and the guy that won I think landed 8. I had a couple less. Once you really pay attention to the fundamentals, trigger squeeze, sight alignment, a couple "sighters" to see where to hold, it's all about consistency at that point. Any loss of focus or a bad trigger pull, etc and you're missing.

Now, doing that while under stress or getting shot at, I would imagine is a whole different ball game.

 

[Stantheman86]

I can't wait to take a crack at long range shooting with my stocked Uberti 1851 Navy

 

[LuVerne Schumann]

The old cavalry manuals called for revolver marksmanship training out to 200 yards. When I was attached to the Bundesgrenzschutz, a German paramilitary group in the 1980s, they qualified out to 100 meters with their 9mm P7s.

 

[Malamute]

What kind of holdover for 100Y shooting with a 9MM? I could plug in the numbers but thought I'd ask. It must be pretty crazy.

The numbers arent really that important in longer distance open sight pistol shooting, its more trial and error, knowing how much sliver of front sight to hold up above the rear sight at various ranges. I told a friend with a new pistol exactly what my hold was on the 300 yard plate with the g19, she was able to hit it with her new g20 in the first load-up without much drama. The hold, BTW, is the target plate split in half horizontally by the top of the front sight, the rear sight dropped down so its top edge is about 2/3 down the dot in the front sight, then squeeze..... Much less than most assume, and I have no idea whatsover what any numbers may indicate as to drop etc. More sleek bullets shoot a tiny bit flatter, more blunt or flatter nose ones require a touch more sight held above the rear. The difference is often very little, but discernable and repeatable with prectice and experience. "Educated guess" probably best describes the practice of iron sighted pistol shooting at distance.

100 yards really isn't all that far, it just seems like it.

I just did a thread where I fired .36 Navies to 100 and I spent an afternoon shooting long range 100-200 with a pair of Walkers from a sandbag. Accuracy was surprisingly good. The Walkers can splash dirt on the 300 yard backstop with the right sight alignment. It's easier to move the front sight up in your sight picture so you can still see the target rather than trying to hold high. My sight picture was the rear hammer notch, the barrel, and then the muzzle, pretty much. Some of the 300 yard steel swingers were scared but I didn't hit any that day. I do believe it's easily possible with the Walker or a Dragoon if you practiced.

Not to get too far off topic but when I was a Nuclear Plant guard, shooting our Glock 40's to 100 to hit steel targets with frangible ammo was part of our training. We did it so we would know what our sidearms were capable of in an emergency if we had to shoot at a threat from longer ranges. Even people with little to no background in shooting quickly learned how to regularly hit at 100 yards.

Taller sights help with holding on longer distances, but its possible to get a sight picture even with some barrel showing above the rear sight. Some of the original and repro Dragoons had 3 leaf sights on the barrel, but the repro makers havent done them in a long time. It would be fun to have a 3 leaf sight on a Dragoon and see how that affects hold at longer distances, like 300 yards. Dixie used to seel the sight, then were out of stock....then they disappeared from their catalog. I was intending to order one or more and regret not. I had one in the 90s that i found in a parts box at a gun show and gave it to a guy building a project gun thinking I could get another, I havent seen one since.

100Y is close for a rifle, far for a handgun with a 4" sightline and open sights!

Its all relative. Its not that difficult to shoot passably well with a pistol with some practice and understanding the best way to use the sights.

I deep dived long range handgun shooting, and the "mechanical accuracy" of handguns is shocking.

... Once you really pay attention to the fundamentals, trigger squeeze, sight alignment, a couple "sighters" to see where to hold, it's all about consistency at that point. Any loss of focus or a bad trigger pull, etc and you're missing.

Now, doing that while under stress or getting shot at, I would imagine is a whole different ball game.

Agreed, after seeing the first few rounds go wild when first trying longer range shooting, you double down on the basics, and things begin to pick up. Ive seen it many times when showing it to people trying for the first time. Ive seen people baiscally say it cant be done, then see it, then try it. So far nobody has said it couldnt be done after seeing and trying it.

As to the last line, yes, it changes the equation some, but if youve done it enough, its not a strange thing, and you can focus on the fundamentals, knowing "Ive done this, I can do this", which is the underlying premise of much training, making it familiar so it comes more easily when needed.

 

[Bad Karma]

I deep dived long range handgun shooting, and the "mechanical accuracy" of handguns is shocking.

I narrowly lost a $100 pot at work, on Range Qual day when some of the "gun guys" threw some money in after we were done qualifying and we fired our 4" S&W 64 .38's in Single Action at the paper plates that came with the pizza we ordered, stapled to the 100 yard target backers. 12 rounds, and all of us hit some and the guy that won I think landed 8. I had a couple less. Once you really pay attention to the fundamentals, trigger squeeze, sight alignment, a couple "sighters" to see where to hold, it's all about consistency at that point. Any loss of focus or a bad trigger pull, etc and you're missing.

Now, doing that while under stress or getting shot at, I would imagine is a whole different ball game.

I recall Ross Seyfried working on a 100 yard minute of angle revolver project. The vehicle was a 2-1/2” unmentionable fired two handed from a bench. I don’t know if he ever reached that goal but I do know that the blackpowder cap and ball revolvers are generally very accurate or capable of very fine accuracy. In fact most of the standard loaded Ruger Old Army and the Pietta Shooters models I have met were 3 MOA capable right out of the box. My theory is that the relative inefficiency of black powder is a net positive here, standard deviation and extreme velocity spread is typically very low resulting in very consistent ammunition…

I do wish Seyfried was still experimenting and writing about it. He was very good for shooting sports of all kinds. It’s an old story though, Colorado boy, raised right, gets out into the wide world, moves to Oregon and forsakes his values… tsk, tsk.

 

[Bad Karma]

The numbers arent really that important in longer distance open sight pistol shooting, its more trial and error, knowing how much sliver of front sight to hold up above the rear sight at various ranges. I told a friend with a new pistol exactly what my hold was on the 300 yard plate with the g19, she was able to hit it with her new g20 in the first load-up without much drama. The hold, BTW, is the target plate split in half horizontally by the top of the front sight, the rear sight dropped down so its top edge is about 2/3 down the dot in the front sight, then squeeze..... Much less than most assume, and I have no idea whatsover what any numbers may indicate as to drop etc. More sleek bullets shoot a tiny bit flatter, more blunt or flatter nose ones require a touch more sight held above the rear. The difference is often very little, but discernable and repeatable with prectice and experience. "Educated guess" probably best describes the practice of iron sighted pistol shooting at distance.

Taller sights help with holding on longer distances, but its possible to get a sight picture even with some barrel showing above the rear sight. Some of the original and repro Dragoons had 3 leaf sights on the barrel, but the repro makers havent done them in a long time. It would be fun to have a 3 leaf sight on a Dragoon and see how that affects hold at longer distances, like 300 yards. Dixie used to seel the sight, then were out of stock....then they disappeared from their catalog. I was intending to order one or more and regret not. I had one in the 90s that i found in a parts box at a gun show and gave it to a guy building a project gun thinking I could get another, I havent seen one since.

Its all relative. Its not that difficult to shoot passably well with a pistol with some practice and understanding the best way to use the sights.

Agreed, after seeing the first few rounds go wild when first trying longer range shooting, you double down on the basics, and things begin to pick up. Ive seen it many times when showing it to people trying for the first time. Ive seen people baiscally say it cant be done, then see it, then try it. So far nobody has said it couldnt be done after seeing and trying it.

As to the last line, yes, it changes the equation some, but if youve done it enough, its not a strange thing, and you can focus on the fundamentals, knowing "Ive done this, I can do this", which is the underlying premise of much training, making it familiar so it comes more easily when needed.

Practiced shooters would say the distance is helpful in one regard. Taking and returning fire at 10 yards is very different from a hundred.

 

[Relic shooter]

Elmer Keith told me years ago if you master long range handgun accuracy will have no issues with short range accuracy,
I've personally found that anyone with good eyesight using a rifled flint & percussion black powder handguns with fast twist rifling can consistently hit targets out to 200+ yds when with open sights. I limit my handgun range to 75 yds when bringing a deer down with open sights.