Perfect revolver?

[brotherlloyd]

hard to beat a Walker

 

[Blackpowderwarrior]

Please understand I'm not being critical of you personally, but the emboldened part of your text really got me curious why you wrote that?

Open top percussion revolvers put all the stress on the cylinder base pin/arbor. Even Colt recognized solid frame revolvers were stronger than the open top frames and went with them shortly after the War with the M 1873 "Peacemaker" onwards.

Gus

gus,

Feel free to look at @45D post on this subject and a myriad of others. i completeley agree with everything he says about the open top being the stronger of the two platforms.

Also a open top can litereally run all day as it blows black powder fouling out of the open top and the arbor has huge groves in it that allows it to keep the cylinder spinnning feely when fouled due to the lube deposits in the grooves.
my remington would literally not index to a chamber after around 3 cylinders or less fired with black powder

 

[45D]

Please understand I'm not being critical of you personally, but the emboldened part of your text really got me curious why you wrote that?

Open top percussion revolvers put all the stress on the cylinder base pin/arbor. Even Colt recognized solid frame revolvers were stronger than the open top frames and went with them shortly after the War with the M 1873 "Peacemaker" onwards.

Gus

Colt didn't recognize it as a "stronger" platform ( they had a top strap in 1855 . . . and dropped it). The Military wanted a top strap revolver, Sam didn't have a say and they're more economical to produce . . . which is why it's still a familiar design today.
The arbor in the open-top IS the top strap and allows a "closer to bore" sight line.

Mike

 

[Artificer]

Colt didn't recognize it as a "stronger" platform ( they had a top strap in 1855 . . . and dropped it). The Military wanted a top strap revolver, Sam didn't have a say and they're more economical to produce . . . which is why it's still a familiar design today.
The arbor in the open-top IS the top strap and allows a "closer to bore" sight line.

Mike

I found your post on your short answer of why you feel the Colt is stronger, but would like to read your long post on it. Could you provide a link to it please?

Gus

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Please understand I'm not being critical of you personally, but the emboldened part of your text really got me curious why you wrote that?

Open top percussion revolvers put all the stress on the cylinder base pin/arbor. Even Colt recognized solid frame revolvers were stronger than the open top frames and went with them shortly after the War with the M 1873 "Peacemaker" onwards.

Gus

Gus, the proof that the Colt open tops are plenty strong enough lies in the fact that there are still a lot of the originals still around and many are still safe to shoot. And, ergonomically, most shooters prefer the Colts. They are fine revolvers and handsome too!

 

[French Colonial]

The proof that open tops are the stronger platform are in how many modern open tops are made in 44 mag and 475 Linebaugh.

 

[45D]

I found your post on your short answer of why you feel the Colt is stronger, but would like to read your long post on it. Could you provide a link to it please?

Gus

Well, I had a rather busy day but I'm sure it's in one of the "short arbor" threads but if not, should be easy enough to find if you're interested ( I haven't posted THAT much here).
Another personal experience exhibiting "fundamental engineering" differences would be the fact that I have sheared loading lever screws ( Dragoon) when loading probably too hard lead balls in open-top revolvers but actually bent a Remington frame doing the same thing.

Another "POSSIBLE" recent account would be the "possibility" of ( haven't had a chance to repeat the test yet) moving the frame of a Pietta SA unmentionable using the same ammo that I routinely shoot in my Uberti 1860 Army ( yes, also a converted unmentionable). A person that reloads would recognize the pressures involved are in the lower Ruger only pressures . . . not bad for the weak open-top "belt pistol" platform.

Mike

 

[Stantheman86]

The "perfect " percussion revolver would be the Ruger Old Army , if I had to choose from existing designs and from a purely functional standpoint. The Ruger Old Army is basically a modern revolver with a retro fit to percussion

The "perfect " percussion revolver if this were 1860 , to me, would be a 3rd Model Colt Dragoon . It can do almost anything.

 

[appalichian hunter]

The one on my hip at the time I need it.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Well, Wild Bill Hickok was partial to the Colt 1851 Navy... and he had more practical experience with the martial use of revolvers than I and anyone else on this forum as he actually killed men with them. Mr. Hickok's opinion not withstanding, I hold that the Colt 1860 Army is the best. In Wild Bill's time, men were smaller in general than modern Americans, so he might have preferred the smaller Navy grip frame. I find that the larger Army frame fits my hand better and I am not an especially large individual. I always found the SAA grip frame a bit uncomfortable, which is no surprise as Colt used the Navy grip frame for some reason.

Sure the Dragoons were decent enough revolvers, but they were horse pistols, not well suited to holstered belt carry. Then there is the advent of what Colt called "silver steel" which made it the lighter belt holstered guns possible in the first place.

Some disparage Colt's open-top designs, but honestly, most Colt replicas I have shot are more accurate than the Remington designs.

 

[Magungo1066]

I have a second gen Colt 1860. It is by far the most reliable capper I have ever had. I would trust it for self defense if I had to and not have much anxiety. I know the legendary "paintability" of the 1851 grip style and the similar feel of the later...unmentionable "Colt Army" that was similar. I agree in the incredible handling qualities but the 1860 Army is the only revolver I have found that tops that. I am not a gunslinger, but at pistol range my 1860 really feels like it goes where I point my fingers. For this reason, and the .44 caliber to boot, the 1860 is the epitome of the pre-metallic cartridge revolvers in my opinion...I also live 35 minutes from Hartford...so there is that

 

[Artificer]

The proof that open tops are the stronger platform are in how many modern open tops are made in 44 mag and 475 Linebaugh.

May I ask which ones?

Gus

 

[45D]

May I ask which ones?

Gus

I believe it's an attempt at some humor towards "there aren't any modern open-tops" made today.

The reason being, the open-top is more expensive to manufacture than a top strap revolver. The most recent American made open-tops were probably the few USFA examples offered ( they probably had short arbors too !! ( couldn't help it!!)).
Heck, Ruger would make $$ offering ROA's again but not as much as current models so, they won't even offer their Top strap bp model!! So, the Italians are the only source but that's ok. They offer an excellent product which is exactly why I'm able to test mine with modern "known" loads ( mine have had mods to allow these tests).

Mike

 

[Pukka Bundook]

I must admit boys, I am still sitting here wondering why some of you could think that an open top is Stronger, everything else being the same....

I don't normally sit here just wondering, but you have me doing it!

All the best,
Richard.

Should add that though I have a Tranter that I really like, for Plain Looks, and 1851 or 1860 Colt still are some of the best looking revolvers ever!
My sister has an original London Colt.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Double post.

 

[mushka]

I have never been involved in a self defense situation where anxiety wasn't involved regardless of any weapon being used. Anxiety is a part of self defense.

 

[45D]

I must admit boys, I am still sitting here wondering why some of you could think that an open top is Stronger, everything else being the same....

I don't normally sit here just wondering, but you have me doing it!

All the best,
Richard.

Should add that though I have a Tranter that I really like, for Plain Looks, and 1851 or 1860 Colt still are some of the best looking revolvers ever!
My sister has an original London Colt.

Well, it's hard when you don't understand the design concept. So, I'll try and simplify.

Top strap - I bent a Remington platform loading / shooting lead ball ammo that was ( apparently) too hard. = a weakness in design compared to loading the same ball projectiles in a Dragoon

Open Top - I sheared the loading lever screw on the Dragoon loading the same lead balls. Therefore, the screw was sacrificed, not the frame. = a strong design for the forces applied.

Another example:

I routinely shoot unmentionable ammo north of 21K psi in my modified Uberti '60 Army. That's roughly 50% more pressure than the top of tier 1 unmentionables. The revolver is in perfect condition. I recently posted a picture of the wedge from that revolver in another thread.

Almost forgot: 95% of these rounds are FMJ, not lead.

Bottom line, a perimeter frame (rectangular structure) surrounding and containing a pressure vessel (cylinder) at discharge is a weaker structure than one half it's size (think of the arbor as the top strap) with more support.


Mike

 

[IronHand]

I have about a dozen c&b revolvers, colt and Remington copies. Used to have a ROA but I sold it.

If I have to choose it would be my 1862 Metropolitan Police.

Not the biggest or the showiest, but the best for me.

Ironhand

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The proof that open tops are the stronger platform are in how many modern open tops are made in 44 mag and 475 Linebaugh.

I believe I said that the open top Colts are strong enough, not that they are the strongest. I have a "C" series Navy that I bought new about 50 years ago and have put 1000s of full loads through and it looks and feels and shoots the same as when I bought it. That is strong enough for me. The whole argument about which is the strongest is really not worth the time it takes . But I will say that the Colt's balance and feel are superior to the Remington's. I have a Remington and it is heavier and it doesn't handle as nicely as a Colt. Compared to the Colt, the Remington's balance is way off.

 

[kh54]

This has been fun reading others’ opinions. I have to admit that as I wrote my OP I realized I was just posing the same question that has been discussed in dozens of other threads, so I’m not surprised by most of the responses. But no one has discussed the barrel length, which I briefly mentioned in the OP. I love my five-inch 1851. It handles like a completely different gun than the full length barrel, and the five inch 1851 Navy is really my “perfect” revolver.

I think that the most successful gunman/lawman of the Old West was someone I don’t believe I’ve seen even mentioned in this forum. That would be the Destroying Angel himself, Orrin Porter Rockwell. I understand that he favored an 1851 (or a pair of them - I’m not sure) that was cut down for concealed carry, the original “avenging angel” belly gun. I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has the original(s) in its possession but I’m not sure about that either. If anyone knows more about all this please share!