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Perfect revolver?

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Please understand I'm not being critical of you personally, but the emboldened part of your text really got me curious why you wrote that?

Open top percussion revolvers put all the stress on the cylinder base pin/arbor. Even Colt recognized solid frame revolvers were stronger than the open top frames and went with them shortly after the War with the M 1873 "Peacemaker" onwards.

Gus
Examining the Remington side by side with the Colt open top I’d argue that the Colt is stronger. The Colt SAA is another matter. The SAA frame is thicker/stronger in areas that the Remington 1858/1861 is not. Remingtons 1875 and 1890 are much improved and probably stronger as well.
 
No Ruger for me. Ever. Google "The Ruger Letter" if interested in learning about the real Bill Ruger.
Bill Roger is dead. If you want to dig up ancient history, go look at what Winchester, Remington, Smith&Wesson, Colt, and others did to stop the importation of .mil surp with the GCA 1968 and the point system on commercial pistols.
 
I just haven’t been able to find one for Bannerman’s price of $3.85. 😁

Seriously, until now I’ve focused on guns that were more likely to have been in use in the ACW. The few hundred civilian R&Ss may have been acquired by individuals but the 5K government order was too late to be issued. Next time I do some serious thinning I may have to start looking for a R&S to round out the collection more. Anyone have one for sale or trade? 😬
Here is an interesting article:
http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/rogers-spencer-revolver.htm
 
Mike, 45D,
I have no wish to pick a fight with you or anyone else, but you asked in your post above, "Who mentioned smokeless?"
Well it looks to me like you did in post #37 above.
We can get on or not, but I don't think I am out of line thinking you meant smokeless by what you wrote in post #37..

I have quoted your post in full below.

All the best,
Richard.

"

To quote you,
"Well, it's hard when you don't understand the design concept. So, I'll try and simplify.

Top strap - I bent a Remington platform loading / shooting lead ball ammo that was ( apparently) too hard. = a weakness in design compared to loading the same ball projectiles in a Dragoon

Open Top - I sheared the loading lever screw on the Dragoon loading the same lead balls. Therefore, the screw was sacrificed, not the frame. = a strong design for the forces applied.

"Another example:

I routinely shoot unmentionable ammo north of 21K psi in my modified Uberti '60 Army. That's roughly 50% more pressure than the top of tier 1 unmentionables. The revolver is in perfect condition. I recently posted a picture of the wedge from that revolver in another thread.

Almost forgot: 95% of these rounds are FMJ, not lead.

Bottom line, a perimeter frame (rectangular structure) surrounding and containing a pressure vessel (cylinder) at discharge is a weaker structure than one half it's size (think of the arbor as the top strap) with more support.


Mike".

all the best,
Richard.

Well sir, the "loading / shooting lead ball" is in black powder form ( loading on the gun ultimately completed the "bending" of the Remington frame). Same with the Dragoon mentioned . . . same ball, but damaged the screw, not the frame. This incident was back in the late 1980's.

The other "example" is a current illustration using my "modified " ( conversion cyl.) in my '60 Army (thus the 21K psi mention).
The point is, I ALREADY shoot unmentionable loads on this platform ( have for 13 yrs.) with excellent results that you say can't or shouldn't happen!!
Using factory FMJ ammo ( which means I'm not using lead or "dead soft" lead !!) the revolver is perfect and remains at the initial specifications.
Conclusion: the open-top platform built correctly can sustain tier 2 loadings as a normal ammo. So much for the "weak" " bp only" moniker that platform receives.

Mike
 
I think of the readily available revolvers today the Pedersoli 1858 Pattern revolver is best, so for shooting that's the one I would pick, followed by a Rogers and Spencer. For just lookin' at an 1860 Uberti in Charcoal Blue finish: nothing beats that one.
 
Gentlemen,
I have owned reproductions of:
walkers, dragoons, spiller and burrs, a patterson, 1865/6 remington baby, junky 'pepperbox 4 shot, Confederate copies, a Lemat, a rogers and spencer, remingtons and colt 49,51,60,61.

The walkers and dragoons were generally horse pistols (there are period images that show them being worn, but believe me, it is not comfortable). They are heavy and cumbersome. The walker due to the oval stops would over rotate if earred back quickly. I sold these.

The patterson broke one of the 2475 internal parts. Navy Arms traded 2 '60 colts for it (good customer service then). Too hard to repair.

The baby remington was after the War so I sold it.
The 'pepperbox' was not a good gun or replica. Gave it away.

Lemat was a hard hammer pull and too many parts to take apart/clean/repair WHEN something goes wrong.

There is a reason the Colts and Remingtons were popular. They work and are over all easy to repair/replace parts. THAT is a big deal. The things that normally go wrong are cylinder stop spring, spring and/or hand spring. ALL EASY TO REPLACE on colts and remingtons.

I love my rogers and spencer (and will be selling an unfired engraved Euroarms one) and my colt 51 and 60. I like my remington.
Here is an interesting article on the RS:
http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/rogers-spencer-revolver.htm
To me common (not that the RS was common, but at least there is the possibility of 800 in civilian hands) and easy to fix are the important things that make the biggest difference. Comfort wise, the 51 probably wins. However, a 44 is easier to load (less dropping) and packs a better punch.
I just wish some Adams, Tranters, and others were made, BUT with prices today, who could afford them?
David
 
Well, maybe "Perfect revolver" to some may include a "strength" factor?!!!
So sorry sir . . .

Mike
Only about 17 responses out of 70 actually named a particular revolver. Over two pages of arguing over which is stronger or shooting modern load equivalents in an open top. just saying there is a place for those conversations. If you like an 1858 say so and the reason and leave it at that.
 
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There are none stronger than the Ruger Old Army. That being said, I do realize that they are not historically correct... and that alone doesn't make it a "perfect revolver", but I sure do like them!
 
I did the majority of my gunsmithing work on repro and original UnCivil War guns in well over half to almost 2/3's of the N-SSA National Championship shoots from the Spring of 1974 to the Fall of 2005; when the Marine Corps didn't send me somewhere else in my regular job of an RTE or NM Armorer. (Though what we did would be called "gunsmithing" by most people, we didn't make barrels or receivers, so we don't claim to be gunsmiths.) 3/4 of my work there (or more) was on long guns, and the remaining was on revolvers. Most of my revolver work was on repro Rogers and Spencer's and repro and original Remingtons, as those were what most shooters used because they were more accurate than repro Colts or other open top revolvers in that and International Muzzle Loading competition. In the latter competitions, including two World Championships, I also worked on a couple of original Rogers and Spencer Revolvers.

Fortunately for anyone who worked on guns for the N-SSA, they had/have an Ordnance Committee that really kept the poorest quality repro's from being approved for use.
Examining the Remington side by side with the Colt open top I’d argue that the Colt is stronger. The Colt SAA is another matter. The SAA frame is thicker/stronger in areas that the Remington 1858/1861 is not. Remingtons 1875 and 1890 are much improved and probably stronger as well.

Colts require more mass of metal in some areas because of at least these things:

1. The steel in the barrel assembly that makes up part of the frame holding the whole revolver together is not hardened and annealed. It can't be because the barrel would blow up. Barrels are made of metallurgically tough steel, but not hardened steel.

2. I don't care how large the cylinder base pin/arbor is, other than to say Colts have to have them that big because it doesn't have a solid frame. Further there is a lot of stress on the threads of the cylinder base pin/arbor which screws it into the main Colt frame. Forget the bronze frame Colts, which in no way are representative of the original design, even the all steel Colts have to have the the cylinder base pin/arbor tightened or low temp silver soldered when the threads begin to wear out.

3. The bottom of the rear of the barrel is only held in place for structure by the mass of metal. The alignment pins only align the two parts together and thus is not as strong as a solid frame.

4. The "frame" of the Colt also has the additional weak spot of needing a wedge to hold it together.

5. Remington frames don't need to be as massive as parts of the Colt, because the Remington frame is solid and hardened/annealed.

Gus
 
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Colts require more mass of metal in some areas because of at least these things:

1. The steel in the barrel assembly that makes up part of the frame holding the whole revolver together is not hardened and annealed. It can't be because the barrel would blow up. Barrels are made of metallurgically tough steel, but not hardened steel.

2. I don't care how large the cylinder base pin/arbor is, other than to say Colts have to have them that big because it doesn't have a solid frame. Further there is a lot of stress on the threads of the cylinder base pin/arbor which screws it into the main Colt frame. Forget the bronze frame Colts, which in no way are representative of the original design, even the all steel Colts have to have the the cylinder base pin/arbor tightened or low temp silver soldered when the threads begin to wear out.

3. The bottom of the rear of the barrel is only held in place for structure by the mass of metal. The alignment pins only align the two parts together and thus is not as strong as a solid frame.

4. The "frame" of the Colt also has the additional weak spot of needing a wedge to hold it together.

5. Remington frames don't need to be as massive as parts of the Colt, because the Remington frame is solid and hardened/annealed.

Gus

First of all, thank you for your service Gus.

As far as your points go :
1. Blow up ?! Not sure why but maybe some more detail on this?
I'd say the Army doesn't have a "bulk" of material at the barrel lug and my Uberti 60 handles FMJ's just fine!

2. The arbor is a "stressed" member and yes, it is threaded in place ( I torque them rather heavily!) . . . threads also hold the barrel in position in a top strap revolver.
Solder is NOT a fix for a loose arbor and threads don't " wear out" unless the part is loose.

3. The barrel "lug" does 4 things- it supports the front of the arbor, it locates bore to chamber, takes care of torque induced by rifling and it handles the downward rotational force from the projectile hitting the forcing cone and friction down the barrel. It is held in position by the driven in wedge and it does the intended job exactly as designed.

4. The "arbor / barrel " is the location of the wedge, not the frame. The arbor is ( like you posted) screwed ( torqued) into the frame. The wedge pulls the barrel assembly back against the end of the arbor under considerable tension ( which is key for the design to work). Typically the arbor is short which means the wedge can't be under needed tension without locking up the cylinder. You didn't mention this but are probably unaware.

5. Apparently Remington frames don't need to be massive so they can be bent Lol ( sorry. Couldn't help it) !! ( maybe they shoulda had a little more mass!)

Mike
 
First of all, thank you for your service Gus.
Hi Mike,

Thank you for the kind words.

As far as your points go :
1. Blow up ?! Not sure why but maybe some more detail on this?
I'd say the Army doesn't have a "bulk" of material at the barrel lug and my Uberti 60 handles FMJ's just fine!
Technically, the correct term is not "blow up," but rather would be a catastrophic failure. If the barrel was hardened and annealed, under the stress of the bullet hitting the forcing cone, it would either shatter a piece or pieces off the forcing cone.

2. The arbor is a "stressed" member and yes, it is threaded in place ( I torque them rather heavily!) . . . threads also hold the barrel in position in a top strap revolver.
Barrels were and are held in place on a solid receiver not only by the threads, but also by the crush fit of the shoulder of the barrel contacting the surface of the receiver.

Solder is NOT a fix for a loose arbor and threads don't " wear out" unless the part is loose.
This may be a difference in the way Colt originally made the arbor threads fit and how it has been done on modern repros. I may be mistaken, but I think the arbor threads on the original Colts were tighter (a higher percentage of thread fit) than sometimes done on the repros. If the threads don't have enough percentage of fit, they won't hold the torque and will loosen under the stress of repeated recoil.

Actually, for the highest levels of accuracy, barrels are threaded to solid receivers individually to achieve the best fit.

I agree that making arbor threads fit the frame more exactly and proper torque is the better way to make and/or fix a looser fitting arbor. However, silver solder not only can, but does work to correct looser fitting arbors, because the stress of black powder is not as great as smokeless.


3. The barrel "lug" does 4 things- it supports the front of the arbor, it locates bore to chamber, takes care of torque induced by rifling and it handles the downward rotational force from the projectile hitting the forcing cone and friction down the barrel. It is held in position by the driven in wedge and it does the intended job exactly as designed.
I don't disagree, it does do the job as intended because with more mass of metal it has enough strength to do so under the pressure or stress of black powder stresses. However, this does not mean a solid frame is not stronger.


4. The "arbor / barrel " is the location of the wedge, not the frame. The arbor is ( like you posted) screwed ( torqued) into the frame. The wedge pulls the barrel assembly back against the end of the arbor under considerable tension ( which is key for the design to work). Typically the arbor is short which means the wedge can't be under needed tension without locking up the cylinder. You didn't mention this but are probably unaware.
Actually, I wasn't aware of short arbor problems on repro Colts till after: 1. Graduating the Revolver Armorer's course at Smith and Wesson in 1984 and 2. After it was brought to my attention by then more experienced BP revolver armorers not long after that.

Yet even when the arbors are properly fitted and are "strong enough" in Colts, they are not as strong as a solid frame that has been properly hardened and annealed.

5. Apparently Remington frames don't need to be massive so they can be bent Lol ( sorry. Couldn't help it) !! ( maybe they shoulda had a little more mass!)

Mike
Any BP frame or system that does the job of a frame can be bent if not properly manufactured or much more often by improper operator error. This is not in any way meant to be a personal criticism of you, as I'm assuming the Remington Repro frame you bent was from improper manufacture.

Gus

Edited to add: Over the 30 plus years I worked as an Armorer at the National Matches of the N-SSA, I was extremely fortunate to have had many mentors who knew particular guns better than I or knew particular things I didn't and they freely shared their knowledge with me. I am forever grateful to them.
 
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Seriously, until now I’ve focused on guns that were more likely to have been in use in the ACW. The few hundred civilian R&Ss may have been acquired by individuals but the 5K government order was too late to be issued.
This was the rather delightful challenge I had in the early 1980's when I was looking to add a revolver to my "personal arsenal" as a Confederate Partisan Ranger/Scout (on foot) and shortly afterwards as a reenactor Confederate Officer of Infantry.

I quickly ruled out Walkers and Dragoons as being too bulky for a soldier on foot.

At the time, I was particularly fortunate to do Armorer work at an N-SSA Nationals and in a Sutler's booth where I could buy most any repro available for distributor cost, a distinct financial advantage.

I have large "meat hooks" or hands, so I particularly liked the grip of the 1860 Army replica's and at first bought one of those. I was also into making very accurately detailed copies of UnCivil War leather gear, so I made a very uncommon copy of a butt to the rear/ flap holster. This so I could carry it cross draw on my waist belt, as I'm a right hand shooter. Even though I'm just shy of 6' 1", I was very surprised and disappointed that when doing Partisan Ranger/Scout work during "Tacticals" (Civil War War Games, not meant for viewing by the public), the 1860 was still too bulky for me on foot. Darn it!! So when I switched to doing a Confederate Infantry Officer, I was looking for another revolver.

OK, this next part is somewhat on shaky ground as I never was an original Remington revolver collector. As was commonly understood then, the grips of most repro Remingtons were undersized from the originals. I considered the German "Hege" repro Remingtons that had "full size" grips according to the original specs. That revolver really fit my hand well, though I just couldn't justify spending at least twice as much, if not more on a Hege Remington.

I ruled out bronze framed revolvers because they wouldn't stand up to heavy use as well as steel frames, even though a repro of a Southron bronze frame revolver would have been "correct" for me as a Confederate Officer. I ruled out a repro of a Starr single action, because the grip didn't feel good.

As a Confederate Officer it was not unusual that I may have been armed with a foreign made revolver. So, I looked into British Tranter and Adams revolvers, but the grips felt weird. It just so happened a good friend offered me an original British Kerr revolver that had the JS Anchor markings and included an original holster that was in extremely good condition, for a price that was way too good to pass up. The Kerr's grip was "different," but still felt very good. Original Kerr holsters in any condition are extremely uncommon and one in the condition of mine was downright rare. I played with the idea of wearing the Kerr and the original holster ONLY at living histories, but decided even that would risk the condition of the original holster too much. OK, so back to repro's.

From original documentation, I found the overwhelming majority of both Northern and Southron Infantry Officers preferred the Colt "Navy" 1851 over any other revolver and even for most rich Officers who could afford any revolver available. Somewhat surprising to me was how popular that model Colt was with the Cavalry and Partisan Rangers on horseback throughout the War by both sides, even when 1860's became readily available. For instance, CSA General "Fighting Joe" Wheeler normally carried FIVE of them throughout the War AND still preferred/used them as a US General when he fought in the Spanish American War. There is also some documentation that US Calvary in the "West" (nowadays known as the Midwest) carried as many as EIGHT 1851's in saddle holsters and on their persons after the 1860's were commonly issued.

So my choice was a Colt 1851 and found it much preferable to carry and use over my earlier 1860, even though the grip didn't fit me quite as well as the 1860. It wasn't terribly hard to get used to the grip of the 1851 and I found it perfectly serviceable

Navy Arms came out with their repro of the Lemat Revolver not long afterwards and I briefly thought of buying one of them. I really did not like the feel of the Lemat and when the head of Navy Arms customer service informed me of how poorly the internal parts were made and fitted, I dropped that idea quickly.

Now for target shooting, I found I much preferred the Rogers and Spencer as it is a more accurate revolver for target use.

So I might suggest the "perfect" revolver is not one, but two, depending on what you mainly intend to use it for.

Gus
 
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