Petrolum products and black powder fouling....a chemical analysis.

[BadDaditood]

Since modern oils have been mentioned, this one strictly for cleaning and storage... Anyone use Lucas gun oil? I bought a bottle for after cleaning because most of their other products have been good for me in cars.

It looks like a 2 cycle oil.

And again, only for cleaning and storage use, not as a patch lube.

Yes. I like Lucas gun oil with the buck on the label.
They have some quality products, except that football team that plays in Lucas Oil Stadium

 

[BadDaditood]

I read that piece a while back. Very interesting and informative article. To this day we don't really have a match to sperm oil and I doubt we'll ever be able to hunt or raise whales for industrial purposes. Pretty sure that if we ever DID, there would simultaneously be (a) an instant demand for the product and (b) clueless liberals screaming that endangered whales were being murdered... even if a practical method of extracting the oils gradually without harming the animal was found.

Speed whale oil had a whale of a lotta uses, even as an additive to ATF.
Kerosene replaced it in oil lamps.
There’s a whale of a lot of replacement products depending on application.
Interesting rabbit hole:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_oil

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Funny, Napa here does not carry water soluble cutting oil. For what ever it may be worth I have not found any petroleum oil to be clearly superior over any other. There are exceptions, ~1960 3:1 oil had an ingredient to break up rust. I watched my grandfather ruin a mint 1894 rifle with it as a kid. It caused cancerous rust. Thankfully the modern 3:1 is not like that. For day to day I use ATF with a dollop of lanolin melted in. Gun oils have nifty and reusable containers though. My WD40 substitute is ATF, lanolin and charcoal lighter.

Birchwood Casey Barricade is an excellent substitute for WD-40 because it lubricates and does an excellent job of displacing moisture.

I believe Black Solve is made from a water soluble cutting oil: it works very well

 

[Stantheman86]

Was that the "Lee" stuff? I thought about trying my smokeless concoction of alox, beeswax, and 2 cycle oil in the black powder world.

It was the Lee Liquid Alox, I coated the bullets with it and fired probably 40 or so of them with no problems

 

[LME]

From a chemistry standpoint, the lack of “solubility” between petroleum(organic) based products, and the (inorganic) salts produced by ignited black powder is the issue, leaving undissolved salts which will eventually corrode the steel. Once salts have been removed, petroleum based products are OK for preserving steel, but should be removed from the barrel prior to shooting,

You are right!

 

[brownac1983]

Funny, Napa here does not carry water soluble cutting oil.

Have you asked the manager? Mine keeps it in the back near the commercial desk, but not on the retail shelves for some reason.

 

[Blackbeard4590]

Anybody know of any good whale oil substitutes? Only thing I can think of is finding a beached sperm whale carcase... which given the rate of decay for something like that would be a pretty stinky proposition. Also, there are no sperm whales in the great lakes to wash up on the beach.

There used to be a product for sale in the Single Shot Exchange called "syntha-cete" versus "spermacete" (the actual whale oil) used in the 18th and 19th centuries. As I do not get the Single Shot Exchange any longer, I am not sure if it is still available, but you can check.

 

[user 51067]

Various types of rendered animal fats have worked well for hundreds of years. Not saying that the new things don't work, but the old saying applies here: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Fired a few shots with T/C Patriots today that I hadn't touched in six months. Last time I cleaned 'em I used Bore Butter to lube the bore as a rust preventative and to "season" the bore... which, by the way, is not a one-time thing, but a lifetime process.

I had one misfire (nipple needs replacing) which fired on the second hit with the same cap. Used 3f Old Eynsford with patched round balls lubed with Bore Butter in both pistols. No rust and no fouling that I could detect.

Again, it works. No real need to try to find something else... though I may order some Bumblin' Bear Grease next time I place an order for something at October Country.

Back in the day with petroleum-based lubes, I had all the fouling I could stand and at the range, I could only fire a couple or maybe three shots before I had to either get the cleaning products out or go home for the day. Since I started using Bore Butter and other animal greases, that scenario has not recurred. You wanna use petroleum products? Go for it! You wanna push them on others? Well, you make your recommendations, you quote your "experts", and you use your right to free speech to the best of your ability. That said, I hold another opinion that is also held by others, and I've been shooting for longer than some of you have been alive.

Daniel Boone used bear grease and coon grease and whatever other animal fats he could find. Pretty sure that at least some of his guns are still around and still work more than a century after his death. Most likely he tried different greases over the course of his life, but I doubt that petroleum products ever came onto his radar.

In the end, it doesn't really matter what "experts" say. Experts can be wrong. Experts built the Titanic, amateurs built the Ark. Try different methodologies. Use what works and discard what doesn't. When the experts say you should be using the latest and greatest products synthesized from some rock found only in Baltisk crater on Mars, nod your head politely, maybe try the new stuff to evaluate it for your own purposes, and then go on using what works.

In general, though some of us really ARE idiots, (case in point, our Pres.... sorry... can't inject politics here ) listen to the grey-beards. We've seen and done more than you have and some of us know what we are talking about.

'nuff said... or maybe too much. Some of us get ornery in our old age.

But we've found the Titanic-still lookin' for the Ark.

 

[user 51067]

I cant stand clubs and ranges. I cant stand people in general. All I do Is wander the forest of the pnw alone and in peace with a black powder rifle

For those of us who have been where we are all of our lives, that is easier said than done. The "human crud" is all around us and closing in FAST!

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

But we've found the Titanic-still lookin' for the Ark.

Some say it has been found, still up on Mt. Ararat where it landed. I personally would not care to go looking for it though. Kurdistan is kind of a modern wild West these days. I spent a few months there in the early 90's. I gots me doubts though. Over the course of thousands of years, gopher wood (whatever that was) will have rotted to nothing. The Titanic was in really COLD water and it's only been down there for a bit over a century.

But... we are wandering far from the topic of this thread. Old guys ramble at times.

 

[vince-m]

Like you I use Bore Butter to season and preserve the barrels in my 6 muzzleloaders and 4 Shiloh and C. Sharps rifles. When I don't shoot for a long time, I check the barrels for corrosion. Works well for me. I used to use it on my round ball patches but started using TOW mink oil the last year to see if it is better or equal to Bore Butter. Still experimenting. I like Bore Butter and will always have some in my gun cabinet and range box.

I agree been lucky for last 36 years.......... has done great job.

 

[user 51067]

But, it's fun to just ramble sometimes. Been burnin' black powder for almost sixty years-I tend to wander off course now and again!

 

[springfield art]

Kero seems hard to find these days. Plenty of bottles of "lamp oil" though. Whatever that is.

I think the Lamp Oil is a Paraffin-based thing; look on the label, it should or may say.

 

[user 51067]

Black powder is a compound. Each of its components are soluble in water or alcohol. Even after combustion, the residue is still water (and/or alcohol) soluble. Introduction of a petroleum-based product most likely complicates the reaction and remaining residue. Perhaps the K.I.S.S. principal (Keep It Simple Stupid) applies here. Our "elders" were smarter and far more experienced in this venue.

 

[SOLANCO]

Are black powder components soluble in rubbing alcohol?

 

[user 51067]

Are black powder components soluble in rubbing alcohol?

Back in the days of high school chemistry class, one of our experiments was to deactivate a "compound" using solvents. We used a small amount of black powder as the compound for the experiment. Potassium Nitrate was soluble with water, and sulfur was soluble with alcohol (maybe reversed?). Once the complete compound has been burned however, the resultant carbon residue has changed chemical properties that seem to be best removed with an emulsifier (soap) and plain old water.

 

[LME]

Back in the days of high school chemistry class, one of our experiments was to deactivate a "compound" using solvents. We used a small amount of black powder as the compound for the experiment. Potassium Nitrate was soluble with water, and sulfur was soluble with alcohol (maybe reversed?). Once the complete compound has been burned however, the resultant carbon residue has changed chemical properties that seem to be best removed with an emulsifier (soap) and plain old water.

what ever you use the barrel has to be cleaned as you stated.

 

[centershot]

Since modern oils have been mentioned, this one strictly for cleaning and storage... Anyone use Lucas gun oil? I bought a bottle for after cleaning because most of their other products have been good for me in cars.

It looks like a 2 cycle oil.

And again, only for cleaning and storage use, not as a patch lube.

Yes, I use it, it works well for me on all my guns as a rust preventative and lubricant. My muzzle loaders get a swipe down the bore with an alcohol soaked patch or two before shooting to remove the oil, no problems.