Pietta 1860 Army Question

[45D]

Thanks Cap!!! Yap, my work is about 1/2 open tops 1/2 top straps. Don't know what the problem is, just because an older design is stronger doesn't mean it's cheaper to manufacture!! Kinda like iron engine blocks vs aluminum . . . it ain't rocket science!! Lol

Mike

 

[Zulch]

I'm just very glad to know that Mike at GoonsGunWorks does this type of work. I think it's an honorable profession. I own several "bad design" Colts? I think they are awesome. I intend to buy more Colts before I die. I better get busy I guess. My Uberti brand Remington is also a fine revolver as well. Shoot, I just like 'em all. Just my two cents.

 

[TrapperDude]

The radial scratches are reamer marks and lead balls will not remove them. If you were shooting paper patchs they would smooth it up over time but probably not totally remove them.
Scratches seldom hurt anything accuracy related but tight spots in the bore do nothing for accuracy. I hand lap, re-crown and often touch up the forcing cone on all my target barrels as part of the over haul tune up. I usually will build a new trigger for all of them and new keys for open top guns. The Pietta's at least both seem to have soft steel on these two components.

Do you hand lap by running patches with polishing compound through the bore over a jag?

 

[M. De Land]

Do you hand lap by running patches with polishing compound through the bore over a jag?

No I do it the old fashion but reliable way of building bearing handled lap rods and casting barrel slugs with various grades of lapping compound charging them. If you can get the high spots out and put a bit of choke in at the muzzle it helps a bit in accuracy. In hand gun barrels getting them level seems to be just as accurate as putting choke in, from what I can see. A bit of choke does seem to work in long guns though. I think it is because the pull at the end just before ball/bullet exit tames barrel oscillation "harmonics".
I have also used fire lapped slugs which works well in cartridge guns if alignment is good but about ruined an open top gun with the practice. I think generally in revolvers good ole hand lapping with lapping compound charged lead slugs is the right method.
I do quite a bit of barrel lapping both in pistol and rifle barrels. What I've discovered in 40 plus years of continual gun work is that all a barrel need do to produce accuracy is spin the bullet, and release it squarely at the muzzle with out deforming it in any way. If the barrel can accomplish this it usually will be accurate as it ever was, pits or not. As an asside I have discovered that a pitted barrel can be very accurate if the pits are not in the leade or crown and do not cause lead build up. I was amazed at how well a pitted up bore can achieve fine accuracy with a good lap job done on it. Barrels I used to think were toast from gun school training turned out in many cases to still have a lot of accuracy life in them.
Another interesting thing I discovered is that a pitted bore does not necessarily mean it will hook lead. What I found is that leading usually occurs after any constriction in a bore. The reason pits usually are harmless is that they fill with lube and the ball or bullet greases right over without tearing the patch or hooking any lead. Now pits in the leade or crown will disrupt accuracy if large enough. I'm including cartridge guns along with muzzle loaders hence some cross terminology.
Gun school training gets one on the path with fundamentals but trial and error experience teach you things guns schools never will .
And............ the old adage that there is more than one way to skin a cat is as true as ever!

 

[William Lincoln]

Ordnance grade brass is the strongest brass alloy. It was used on
cannon, derringers (barrel & all) and frames of pistols and rifles.
Pietta still uses it today--this is not the soft brass of castings from
India or statues.

 

[Brokenbear]

All righty ..back to the OP's question

This is a "SWAG" tied to Hodgdon produced substitutes Pyrodex and Tripple Seven advice of use of their powder ..to use it by VOLUME against black powder volume

So my guess is if you took your black powder measure and set it at 30 grains and then weigh your black powder to insure the measure is accurately marked and that it has indeed measure out 30 grains .....

then pour Pyrodex into your same measure on the same setting as the one you used on BP and my $$ says it will be real close to the gun maker's 28 grain Pryodex recommendation

In today's market using 30 grains I would also say that you can shoot Pyrodex just a hair cheaper than
Shuetzen BP which is about 8 cents a trigger pull at 30 grains

And you can shoot Tripple Seven a hair cheaper than Swiss BP ..about 12 cents a pop for T7 and 13 cents a pop for Swiss

Bear

 

[TrapperDude]

All righty ..back to the OP's question

This is a "SWAG" tied to Hodgdon produced substitutes Pyrodex and Tripple Seven advice of use of their powder ..to use it by VOLUME against black powder volume

So my guess is if you took your black powder measure and set it at 30 grains and then weigh your black powder to insure the measure is accurately marked and that it has indeed measure out 30 grains .....

then pour Pyrodex into your same measure on the same setting as the one you used on BP and my $$ says it will be real close to the gun maker's 28 grain Pryodex recommendation

In today's market using 30 grains I would also say that you can shoot Pyrodex just a hair cheaper than
Shuetzen BP which is about 8 cents a trigger pull at 30 grains

And you can shoot Tripple Seven a hair cheaper than Swiss BP ..about 12 cents a pop for T7 and 13 cents a pop for Swiss

Bear

So, you're saying that 28gr of Pyrodex, in weight, gives you 30gr in volume? That would make sense.

 

[William Lincoln]

Ordnance brass was originally called "gun metal" or Red brass. Is Related to
Bronze. Due to copper content was deemed red by some. Copper-tin-zinc.
More copper made it tougher and was used in times past by federal armories.
It is a fine art of metalurgy, but brass can be produced and formed into a
tough weapon.

 

[Brokenbear]

So, you're saying that 28gr of Pyrodex, in weight, gives you 30gr in volume? That would make sense.

That is correct ..it is also why the substitutes can be cost per shot comparable or better to their equivalent black powder competitor brands and grades

Just to be safe ..I am saying whatever VOLUME of measure you use for black powder ..use the substitute in the same way with the same measure and same setting (if an adjustable ) ..and in doing so you will have the same or higher velocity at the same pressures that black powder is designed to operate at

Bear

 

[M. De Land]

That is correct ..it is also why the substitutes can be cost per shot comparable or better to their equivalent black powder competitor brands and grades

Just to be safe ..I am saying whatever VOLUME of measure you use for black powder ..use the substitute in the same way with the same measure and same setting (if an adjustable ) ..and in doing so you will have the same or higher velocity at the same pressures that black powder is designed to operate at

Bear

Balk equivelent measurement to BP is the design perameters of Pyrodex P and RS. I have some Triple 7 picked up in an estate sale that I need to try but would think it would be measured the same. The label will tell.
The reason I believe more in balk measurements than weight is because I think grain fracture of BP effects weight more than volume.
Also if one learns to sieve off the fines out of each pound of BP (Goex far more than Swiss) I think that person will have all the fine pan powder for a flint lock that they will ever need.
Some say you don't need finer pan powder but I have tried 4F and Null-b which is BP dust , and it works better for me in match shooting.

 

[TrapperDude]

That is correct ..it is also why the substitutes can be cost per shot comparable or better to their equivalent black powder competitor brands and grades

Just to be safe ..I am saying whatever VOLUME of measure you use for black powder ..use the substitute in the same way with the same measure and same setting (if an adjustable ) ..and in doing so you will have the same or higher velocity at the same pressures that black powder is designed to operate at

Bear

With my Remington, I've always used the 30gr spout that's on the flask. It'll be convenient to do the same with the Colt.

 

[Brokenbear]

I have found on my 1860 the sweet spot to be 25 grains ..and since I shoot 3 C&B calibers I just bought 15, 20, 25, grain spouts from Track of The Wolf .. $5 a spout is soon recovered by 5 grains at a time going from 30 to 25 grains and not much different in feel/function

Bear

 

[Dude]

why did colt use a top strap on the 1873 in 45 which used 40 grains of BP? to make it weaker then an open top? I do not take any bodies opinion on anything when their means of making money is connected to what they are saying. look at vaccines

Colt created the 1873 with a top strap because the military wouldn't accept the open tops. The military wanted a top strap. If Colt wanted the contract, that's what they had to produce.

 

[TrapperDude]

why did colt use a top strap on the 1873 in 45 which used 40 grains of BP? to make it weaker then an open top? I do not take any bodies opinion on anything when their means of making money is connected to what they are saying. look at vaccines

Well, the question about the strength of a design has to look at the nature of the structures being compared--not specific examples of revolvers using the different structural designs.

A revolver with a very heavy arbor will be stronger than a revolver with a top strap if the revolver with the top strap has an entire frame that is very thin. A revolver with a top strap will be stronger than a revolver with an arbor if the revolver with the top strap has a heavy frame and the revolver with the arbor has a thin arbor. For these reasons, the designs must be compared from a structural perspective, rather than from comparison of specific revolvers.

Structurally, a full-frame revolver is a stronger design because the barrel is held in place from two directions--from the top strap above and from the frame below. An open-top revolver, however has its barrel held in place only from below. Think of it as measuring the strength of structural member held up at both ends vs. the same structural member when it is cantilevered.

To illustrate, imagine placing a chopstick so that each end is on a separate cinder block. If you were to press down on the middle of the chopstick, it would take more force to break that chopstick than it would take to break the chopstick if it only had one end epoxied to a single cinder block.

A discussion of the relative strength of open top vs. full-frame revolvers can't be addressed in general terms. It must address the relative strength of specific revolvers if the discussion is to bear fruit. Otherwise, the discussion must address the relative strength of the two structures if specific revolvers are to be left out of the debate.

Until someone brings up actual stress tests conducted to compare Remington revolvers to various open-top revolvers, there is no way to definitively state that any open-top revolver is stronger than a Remington with its full-frame design--not unless a mechanical engineer does the math to calculate force vectors and accounts for the material thicknesses involved.

 

[TrapperDude]

I have found on my 1860 the sweet spot to be 25 grains ..and since I shoot 3 C&B calibers I just bought 15, 20, 25, grain spouts from Track of The Wolf .. $5 a spout is soon recovered by 5 grains at a time going from 30 to 25 grains and not much different in feel/function

Bear

I need to get a chrono. I'd be curious to see what the velocity difference is between what you get out of 25gr vs. 30gr. If the velocity difference is minor, then that 25gr charge might actually be a valid fighting load.

 

[William Lincoln]

The sweet spot for 44cal percussion revolvers for accuracy is 25grs Black.
This even holds true for ROA in match shoots. Less can be more. Having
said that, I load much higher charges--unless I am in a match. Try down
loading a little and check it out. At least this is my experience and the
experience of many others.

 

[M. De Land]

Colt created the 1873 with a top strap because the military wouldn't accept the open tops. The military wanted a top strap. If Colt wanted the contract, that's what they had to produce.

I think open frame guns were an evolutionary dead end from a practical stand point and solid frame guns were the next technological step forward.

 

[M. De Land]

I need to get a chrono. I'd be curious to see what the velocity difference is between what you get out of 25gr vs. 30gr. If the velocity difference is minor, then that 25gr charge might actually be a valid fighting load.

With black powder revolvers, barrel length is probably the main velocity enhancer with any load you put in them. An 8 inch barrel can develop upwards of 300 fps increase over say a stubby with a 3 inch barrel of the same caliber and full power loads.

 

[TrapperDude]

With black powder revolvers, barrel length is probably the main velocity enhancer with any load you put in them. An 8 inch barrel can develop upwards of 300 fps increase over say a stubby with a 3 inch barrel of the same caliber and full power loads.

That's exactly why I got the 8" models of both revolvers I bought. For a couple of magnum unmentionables, I even got 6" and 7.5" models, respectively, for those two. The 4" and 5.5" models just seemed like they'd be wasting a lot of good gas expansion.

 

[SPQR70AD]

Well, the question about the strength of a design has to look at the nature of the structures being compared--not specific examples of revolvers using the different structural designs.

A revolver with a very heavy arbor will be stronger than a revolver with a top strap if the revolver with the top strap has an entire frame that is very thin. A revolver with a top strap will be stronger than a revolver with an arbor if the revolver with the top strap has a heavy frame and the revolver with the arbor has a thin arbor. For these reasons, the designs must be compared from a structural perspective, rather than from comparison of specific revolvers.

Structurally, a full-frame revolver is a stronger design because the barrel is held in place from two directions--from the top strap above and from the frame below. An open-top revolver, however has its barrel held in place only from below. Think of it as measuring the strength of structural member held up at both ends vs. the same structural member when it is cantilevered.

To illustrate, imagine placing a chopstick so that each end is on a separate cinder block. If you were to press down on the middle of the chopstick, it would take more force to break that chopstick than it would take to break the chopstick if it only had one end epoxied to a single cinder block.

A discussion of the relative strength of open top vs. full-frame revolvers can't be addressed in general terms. It must address the relative strength of specific revolvers if the discussion is to bear fruit. Otherwise, the discussion must address the relative strength of the two structures if specific revolvers are to be left out of the debate.

Until someone brings up actual stress tests conducted to compare Remington revolvers to various open-top revolvers, there is no way to definitively state that any open-top revolver is stronger than a Remington with its full-frame design--not unless a mechanical engineer does the math to calculate force vectors and accounts for the material thicknesses involved.

good post. remember that remington also had the grip frame was not screwed into the main frame it was all one piece. I dont know if that matters for strength but I was surprised to see Ruger adopt the screw in grip frame. The wedge system to hold the barrel on a colt was prehistoric lol