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gwynrees

Pilgrim
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I've posted this on the flintlock forum but should have probably posted here (although I think I recall my father saying it was possibly a converted flintlock)

I'm a new member and have posted this for my father who is a muzzleloading enthusiast based in the UK. He is keen to learn more about the rifle. Anything would be of interest, but some questions I know he has are;

- Does anyone know anything about the maker RS Clark?

- How rare is the rifle?

- Does this type of beadwork originate from a particular type of indian tribe?

- Do the beadwork patterns mean anything or are they just decoration ?(they look like tee pees to me)

- What are the symbols on the muzzle? (good luck marks?)

Thanks,
John

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John,
Unfortunately, I cannot answer your questions, though I am sure that some of the members will chime in. What I wanted to say is that is one beautiful rifle! I'm trying to wipe the drool off of my chin. :winking:
You didn't mention what caliber it is, I'm guessing something around .36 - .40? Anyway, like you, I'm interested in what others say about this piece. Your father has a real keeper...
Scott
 
Lucky you, that is a nice one. Sorry I can't help with any info - but if that rifle could talk what a tale to hear.
 
Maybe somebody in the gunbuilders forum would have some answers.

It could be a contemporary build.

The patchbox seems to be sorta late 18th century to early 19th century style. Triggerguard too. The lock has some Ohio rifle look.

I'm no expert on these things though.

Does the leather case seem to be genuinely old or??
 
My first impression is that this gun is a modern build, blending elements of an 18th century longrifle into an late 19th century plains rifle.

Could you post more photos?

Photos of the top of the barrel at the breech, the tang, the side plate, Cheeck piece, trigger guard, and the end of the forearm, among others might help determine what you really have.
 
Very interesting piece. I agree that some more photos would be nice also some measurements... it is difficult to tell if the lock plate was flint or not... there is a hint of what appears to be the remains of a pan to the left of the percussion drum. The percussion hammer looks to be English with the dolphin motif. Will be an interesting discussion... Warren
 
I found a listing for an R.S. Clark, lockmaker, 1841-1843, but no other information shown. I will look further and maybe come up with some more information.
 
I found a picture of a fullstock percussion rifle, marked RS Clark,on this site:
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:pipMbCVScxMJ:www.gtlewisauctions.com/past2.htm+r.s.clark+flintlock&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=ca

look at the patchbox...it is identical to yours.
 
Thanks for the help so far. The remaining pictures I currently have are below. I'll get some dimensions and more photos tomorrow.

John

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Nice rifle, and it certainly seems to be an original. Will be interesting to see what information comes to light.
 
I am far from being an expert but I will put in a few thoughts about your rifle.

I feel the rifle is an original, not a newly made gun. A few of the reasons for my saying this are:

The corrosion around the nipple and the verdigris in the patchbox indicates age to me.

The checkering on the hammer is not the kind of work usually associated with a modern builder.

The 7 groove barrel is typical of hand rifled barrels.

The markings on the muzzle has been noted on a number of very old guns. There is speculation as to whether these were simply decorations or were intended to ward off evil spirits. Perhaps a little of both?

The only thing that looks like it could be modern is the striping on the ramrod and there continues to be a great debate as to whether guns made in the mid 1800's and before had this feature or not. The Jury is still out on that one.


It is very unlikely that the lock is a converted Flintlock. The RS Clark mentioned by powderburner may have made the lock, and perhaps the entire gun however the word "WARRANTED" stamped under the name gives me the feeling that the lock was a commercial item that was for sale to gunmakers. This is not to say that RS Clark didn't make the rifle but to point out that others could have been the actual gunsmith.

The stock was made for a percussion lock. It lacks the relief cut necessary for a Flintlocks Cock (hammer) that would be cut into the wood under the Cock (hammer). This relief would expose some of the metal at the top of the lockplate for the Cock to rest against when in the fired position.



The pierced patchbox is interesting on a half stock rifle as by the time halfstocks were popular, the use of an elaborate patchbox was going out of favor among builders and costumers.

The patchbox design is somewhat similar to one used by John Sherry (1773-1859 Westmoreland County Penn.) (ref "The Longrifles of Western Pennsylvania pp xxx, 92, plate No. 41).

The gun shown in the link (and in Davy's post) seem to have the same (or very similar) patchboxes and the checkering on the wrist seems to be somewhat similar.
It would be great of the owner of that rifle were on this forum and could share some of it's features with us.

zonie :)
 
Also agree the gun is original, not a "weathered" modern specimen. The butt area, espeically the butt plate and trigger guard appear eastern in style. My guess is a maker east of St.Louis...how about that for vague? The bead work is generic lazy-stitch and appears to be mid to late 19th century but there is nothing about it that could speak to tribe. Best guess would be be central plains. Nice display piece anyway and might be fun to shoot if the barrel is in good shape for such. Your Dad has a cutie alright!
 
Some more information from my father

- The rifle is a 50 caliber
- The width of the barrel across the flats is one and a quarter inches
- The barrel length is 33 inches
- The bore is in very good condition. The rifle shoots extremely well. With iron sights it shoots 3.5 to 4 inch groups at 100m with patch ball
- The rifle has been used to shoot a number of deer (I'll post a photo later). The load used is 120grains FFG (english No. 6)
- The nipple very unusual as it is a high quality Wesley Richards patent of around 1860
- The back sight is adjustable for windage and elevation
- RS Clark is suspected to be Reuben Samuel Clark who apparently operated in St Louis at the turn of the 18th century
- It has apparently definitely been converted from flintlock. It is possible to see where the pan has been cut off and a simple tube and nipple installed
- The rifle brought by my father from a Cornish man(county at the southern tip of England)about 30 years ago. The story is that it belonged to his great great .. grandfather who was a Cornish tin miner. In his early twenties he went to America to work for the Union Pacific railroad using his mining skill to blast tunnels. He took the job of supplying meat to the camp labourers in his spare time. At some point he tied up with a native woman. When his contract with the Union Pacific finished all communication between him and his family ceased. Nothing was heard from him until he returned to Cornwall in his late 70's bringing this rifle and two others with him. As on of the earlier posts said - if only the rifle could talk!!

My father found out about the rifle through a friend who serviced generators on remote farms on Exmoor. He first saw the rifle in a sack in the back of a landrover. When he asked the owner what it was doing there he was told that it the owner and his wife didn't want it and would'nt have guns in their house. The ownwer had just inherited it from his father and didn't know what to do with it. On seeing it my father brought it. It's not known what happened to the other two rifles -shame!!.
 
The Cornish Tin Miners came over to the US in large numbers in the 1830's and later. They worked the lead mines in SW Wisconsin and NW Illinois. They also worked the iron ore mines in Northern Minnesota and the Copper and Tin mines in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.

Since this is a plains style rifle, I would imagine that the owner was working the mines on the Mississippi near Galena Illinois. The probability of the gunmaker being from St. Louis would certainly work since Galena had 15 to 20 steamboats tied up at the docks each day during her heyday.

Even today in Wisconsin and Michigan the Cornish Tin Miners are remembered in food. Their "Pasty" the large meat pie that they took into the mines for lunch, is still a favorite food served in many of the restaurants.

One of the largest lead mines ever was the Bonne Terre lead mine SW of St. Louis.

Many Klatch
 
The photo of the entry pipe and it's close proximity to the barrel key (located pretty much the same as in the photo posted by Davy) has me thinking that it may have been a fullstock converted to a half stock.

Zonie's astute observation of the 7 groove rifleing puts it, at least in my mind, out of the realm of a contemporary build.

Can't get over that patchbox and triggerguard. :confused:
 
There are experts on beadwork, and on the various styles and patterns associated with different tribes. Beads today come from Czechoslovakia, which has been making most the glass beads sold here in the USA for more than 100 years. So, An examination of the beads by an expert is in order. Its possible that the bead work could have been done later, as would be the same with the leather case. However, after reading your history, that seems doubtful, and it probably is the work of this Conish Tim miner's Indian wife. He most likely stayed with her until her death, before returning to Wales with the guns. Even back then, people frowned on men who had " squaws ", and mixed races. When men did that, they often stopped all contacts with their families for fear that the word would somehow get back to the family that he was living with an Indian wife. All of that seems to be consistent with what you have written about the Cornish Tim Miner, except the part about feeding the RR crews part time. Of course, he may have been involved in the construction of the Transcontinental RR in the 1860s, some thirty years after he arrived in America, and if true, than he could also have been involved in hunting game to supplement the food for the other workers. Buffalo Bill is not the only hunter that worked for Union Pacific RR supplying meat. And, he could have easily met Indians and become involved with an Indian wife during that period, as the Plains tribes were not removed until after Custer's demise at the Little Big Horn in 1876.

The pictures of the lock and side of the barrel do not easiy show where a pan was cut off-perhaps if the lockplate were removed we could see that. If that is present, then the barrel was orginally on a flintlock, and converted to use on a percussion action rifle. That was a quite common event in the 1840s, as so many people were going west, either by wagon train, or on foot. Guns were in high demand, particularly for European immigrants, who could not, and did not own firearms when they arrived. Every old gun that a gunsmith acquired was converted to a percussion action, and sold at a good profit to the new settlers heading West. In the 1830s, the ending of the Fur trade was occuring, as beaver hats went out of style. But enough had been told about the West to lure men out there to hunt buffalo, or to prospect for silver and gold. Miners could find work in the lead mines, as described near Galena, Illinois. There were also mica mines, and mines for other minerals in S. Illinois, and in Missouri. And, coal mines in Pennsylvania, and northwest Virginia.

The Sioux Indians tribes( there are and were many clans that formed what we called the " Sioux ") occupied Minnesota, Northern Iowa, and even hunted in Western Illinois, fighting with the Winnebago Tribes from Wisconsin over hunting grounds. In 1836, as the Michigan- Illinois Canal was being complete at its southern terminal near Ottawa, Illinois, there was the last Indian massacre of white settlers only about 30 mines NW of Lasalle-Peru, Illinois. That kicked off the Black Hawk War, gavie Abraham Lincoln his Military service as an officer leading a group of state militia, and resulted in a final battle at the mouth of the Wisconsin River which killed many indians, either by being shot, or by drowning. The war was over, and those Indians were re-located west of the Mississippi River to Iowa. So, in the 1830s, the Indians would not have been very far from the lead mines at Galena.

I hope this brief history about that period of time helps.
 
In the picture of the other rifle, does anyone else see a join line that appears to mark the forearm as being a separate piece of wood?
 

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