Planning my first flintlock build

[M Cochran]

I am getting ready to start a flintlock build but have some questions. I plan to buy the barrel and fabricate all the other pieces and parts myself. I am curious as to a caliber recommendation. I was thinking about something in the area of a .45 but was debating smaller. I'm planning on using it for target shooting and maybe carry while hunting. I've looked on eBay at some of the barrels and honestly don't know enough to buy the right thing. A good example is I saw a barely listed as a '.454' but didn't move on it simply because I got confused and the auction ended before I finished my debate in my head.

Please forgive the ramble and feel free to give me a hard time because I left out details.

I look forward to your replies.

Mike

 

[Chowmif16]

Mike,
You will love building a flintlock!

Pardon me for assuming, but based on your title and question I am going to assume that you have not built a muzzleloader before. If I am wrong, then my apologies up front.

If you have built a percussion gun, you will probably find a flintlock build to be slightly easier.

With that, assuming it is your first gun build, I think you have the cart before the horse a little bit.

Start with its intended purpose. You said targets and hunting. Make sure you know the minimum caliber in your state for what you intend to hunt.

Then choose a style of rifle that you like, and will fit you (and your budget). Is this gonna be the only gun you ever build? If so, don't rush. Go to the local gun store or muzzleloader club and shoulder some rifles to see what fits well. As an example, I don't like deeply crescent butt plates. I didn't know that till I built one. Oops.

There are lots of resources on different styles of historical guns to choose from.
I love historically correct guns and try to build them that way, but that doesn't mean you have to. Build a generic gun if you like, and if it done well and fits you, that is about all you can ask for on your first build

Next, decide how complex you want the build to be. Do you have wood, and metal working skills and tools? If no, are you willing to spend the time and money to get them?

The options range from buying a custom gun built but left in-the-white (need to sand, stain, polish, etc) , or a assembly kit like from Pedersoli, or get a pre-carve kit from track of the wolf or Jim Chambers, or finally, build it from a blank.
The tools and skills you will need progressively increase as you move down that list.

Since you mentioned looking at barrels, it sounds like you are considering buying parts piecemeal to assemble a gun. That can work, but you gotta do the research on style and building first. Otherwise you will almost definitely waste money on the wrong parts or build a Frankenstein-gun. Nothing wrong with building a gun that doesn't conform to a classic rifle style, but without the right combination of parts, it will not look right.

Lastly, buy gun building books! The Gunsmith of Grenville County by Peter Alexander is great. Recreating the American Longrifle is great and there are others.
There are also videos out there. They are awesome, but I think they complement the books rather than replace the books.

And of course, this forum. Lots of folks way smarter than me out here.

If I have missed the mark on your question or experience level, then at least maybe someone else will benefit!

Edit: okay, I'm an idiot. I just re-read your post and see that you intend to fabricate the rest of the parts.

That's a lofty goal! Do you intend to build the lock?
Anyway, I will leave the first part of my post up un-edited because it may still be relevant.

Again, choose a style and go from there. I would also then consider trying to copy furniture of a particular style and keep it consistent. Otherwise, Frankenstein-gun.

Look at barrels from Ed Rayle, Colerain, Rice or Green Mountain. You could also look at which barrels come with Chamber's or Track's kits of each style and then get that barrel.

So I don't risk failing to understand your question more, I will shut up now!
Cheers,
Chowmi.

 

[Chowmif16]

I see from your intro post that you are a blacksmith. Wish I had those skills!
Do you want to build it with iron furniture then?

Have a look at southern rifles. Lots of iron furniture there. Also, have a look at some of the rifles from the Woodbury school. Herschel House and his family do some beautiful rifles with iron furniture.

Cheers!

 

[Zonie]

If your buying off of the web, you are taking chances.

A barrel for shooting roundballs will have deep rifling grooves. The twist will also be slow, between 1:48 and 1:70.

The caliber will be something like .450, .500, .540, .570 or .620.
Odd sizes like the .454 are for shooting modern bullets. They also have very shallow rifling which works poorly with patched roundballs.

If your looking for used barrels, look for barrels that came off of a muzzleloader.
These may be from a old CVA, Lyman, Thompson Center or Pedersoli.

It's best to buy a new barrel from places like Muzzleloader Builder's Supply or Track of the Wolf.

Here's a link to MBS
https://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/mbs3cart/agora.cgi?cart_id=8930188.13242&product=Barrels

And a link to TOTW https://www.trackofthewolf.com/list/Item.aspx/652/1

Be aware, new barrels often do not come with a breech plug installed so that may be extra.
Rice barrels usually have a breech plug installed.

While your at either of those places in the links, check out the locks they sell.

Trying to build a lock from scratch is almost impossible for a newbie and the locks sold by both of these places are excellent, made in the USA locks.

Have fun.

 

[M Cochran]

Thank you, Chowmif, for the reply. I'll try to answer some of you questions to better assist you and other readers.

I have experience as a carpenter (both building houses and building custom furniture) and have various tools left over from those days including a bandsaw, a belt sander, a router with various bits, a small collection of chisels, and various saw.

As far as metalworking experience, I am a blacksmith in my limited free time and as such I have a collection of files and an angle grinder (used mostly as a cutoff tool) and a few other tools and the ability to make some more if needed.

This will be the first time I've built I firearm since I was a kid playing with muzzleloading powder from Walmart and plumbing parts when I was about 16. I thought about doing a caplock but decided to try a flintlock first after all they did come first in history and this will likely not be the last I build.

I know I can legally use a .270 for deer here in Alabama, in fact I have one and I know several others who use one as well.

As far as books go, right now I'm reading 'Modern Gunsmithing' I can't remember the author right now and I know it's dated but it's full of all sorts of information.

I will be using some 'iron' furniture. I'm not sure just how decorated this project will be so I don't know if I'll cast any brass or pewter parts.

 

[M Cochran]

I knew buying online would be a gamble but the nearest place I know that's a physical store is Dixie Gunworks and it's a about 12 hours away.

Thanks for clarifying the caliber confusion for me.

I was thinking about buying a used barrel since unfortunately I cannot afford a new one at this time. Of course this is going to be a drawn out project so maybe by the time I get around to the final planning stages I might have found one on sale somewhere.

 

[Chowmif16]

Mike,
Glad you survived the black powder and plumbing pipe experience! Some don't.....

As Zonie said, make sure it's a muzzleloader barrel you get. You won't like the results if you don't.
All the places listed sell either online or by phone, so no trip is required.

Also, barrels do come up for sale on Internet auction sites, or on this and other forums. If you buy a used barrel, immediately check to see if it is loaded. A surprisingly high percentage of them are loaded.
A used barrel may be cheaper, but it will also have its drawbacks. Such as:
Condition. No matter what the seller says, it might be in rough shape and money wasted. You also might not be able to return it.
Also, a used barrel will often have sights and underlugs installed already. They might not be the sights you want, or more importantly, might not be where you want them to be. Same with underlugs or holes drilled for barrel rib screws. As a blacksmith, these are not insurmountable problems in any way, just a potential pain in the arse.
I don't have the book you mention, but my guess is that it doesn't talk much about muzzleloaders. There are many things specific to muzzleloaders that are important in the building process.
Don't know the rules here about discussing other forums, so I will say this. Look on the for sale/want to buy section here and on some of the other long rifle forums (google it). With patience, you should be able to get a used copy of those books.

Cheers,
Chowmi

 

[mooman76]

If you are planning on hunting deer with your rifle you are planning to build, you might check your local hunting regs. I know you said .270 was the minimum but most states have a different caliber minimum for muzzle loaders that for center fire. I myself would want to use 45 as a minimum. I'm not saying a smaller caliber wouldn't work but I would just feel more comfortable with a 45 and it would have little more range than something smaller.

 

[M Cochran]

I just looked at the book I'm reading is 'Modern Gunsmithing: a manual of Firearms Design, Construction, and Remodeling for amethres and professionals' Clyde Baker (1933). It doesn't cover muzzleloaders but I felt some of the information would be good none the less.

If I do buy used it'll be from a highly rated seller with a return policy. A check for being loaded is definitely a good suggestion as I've heard horror stories of people finding that lead surprise in a bad way.

 

[M Cochran]

I'm not sure that .270 is the limit here but I wouldn't want to go much smaller. I used to have a .45 acp 1911 and became fond of that round. It's big enough to do most anything but not so large it's obnoxious and causing excessive damage. Where I'm at the shots are generally under 100 yards so .45 is more than adequate.

 

[54ball]

Hey, Home Folks :hatsoff:

Mike,
I'll just tell you straight up. You have no idea how tedious this is going to be. Nobody starting in this does. There is a reason a decent plain as a slice of bread longrifle starts at out around two grand.

It will be the most delicate and mentally exhausting thing you have ever tried. It's too much work time and skill to waste on junk. With that said parts are too expensive to just "throw together". I'm not talking about lock building...no, I'm just talking about just basic assembly done right.

So...get an education in this. Buy the books. Take classes...A building class is coming soon 2017 at the shop I apprentice at in Pinson. That might be a good opportunity for you.

If you must build a lock, order a Chambers Siler kit. The holes are spotted and all the metal is treated. Trust me, it will be hard enough to make a decent lock out of that.

You need the tools. Chisels, rasps, files, vises ect ect etc.
You need the place..a work area with a good bench.
You need to be willing to develop the skill through education..books, classes, videos but mostly by doing. There's so much that's not in those books and videos. Once you really get into this, you'll understand why some stuff is just casually mentioned and glossed over. Frankly there's not enough words in the English Language to describe some "procedures". A DVD that showed everything would be about week long 24-7 and that's just how that guy does it. It may not be how you will end up doing it.
Some things you just have to learn. Part of learning is mistakes and most importantly how to repair and overcome those mistakes.
As a carpenter in construction you know you have to pay your dues. You don't come in off the street as a master. This is a trade...and to be really good, it's one of the most difficult.

To build good stuff, start with good stuff. Buy a good piece of wood. I'm not talking about super figure, just a good piece of stock wood.

Buy a good barrel. A straight barrel is fine but buy new or unused, don't buy someone's old used junk.

By the best lock you can.

Pipes, triggers, nosecaps, triggerguards, pins and buttplates....you can make that stuff it you have attention to detail.

Good luck...

PS since we are so close PM me if you want talk flintlocks and rifle building in more detail.

 

[M Cochran]

Thanks for the suggestions. To be honest I know this isn't going to be easy but I know it's not the hardest thing I've ever done. If I was going to make my own barrel than yes it might be. I didn't know there a gunsmith shop in Pinson but now I do, thanks.

I just want to tell everyone I fully understand the challenge I'm getting myself into with this project. The reason for me making every part except the barrel is for the sake of pride. I want to be able to say 'I made this' not 'I assbled this kit.' I'm not saying there's anything wrong with lots just that there's a couple wires crossed in my head. I like doing things the difficult way as it gives a greater sense of accomplishment at the end of it all.

 

[rushlake1]

Do yourself a big favor...Save your pennies and buy a new Rice barrel......take on a second job- do odd jobs do what ever it takes..you will not regret it.

They come with breach plug...

pick a caliber..pick a weight.. pick a length.

straight barrel for target shooting..heavier
Swamped for everything else...balanced...your choice.

don't scrimp on barrel and lock...every thing else is fluff.

NOTICE...You have been officially Warned!

As someone new to building rifles study-read listen
do your homework ..do your homework..make a plan.
keep an open mind set.

You have been given very good advice from experienced members here...run with it.

Enjoy the ride!

 

[M Cochran]

I didn't mean to make anyone think I was disregarding suggestions given. I fully respect and appreciate the responses and the people giving them. If someone does feel like I'm bieng dismissive or disrespectful please call me out on it.

I have looked at the rice barrels after you suggested it and the way the prices are listed is less than clear. I will get in touch with them and let them give me a quote for the exact barrel I'm looking for and see where that leads me.

 

[Chowmif16]

No disrespect taken at all.

I think what the other posters (and I) are getting at is that this gun building thing can look easy. Especially if you have skills in areas like woodworking or black smithing. I certainly thought it looked easy, and I didn't /don't have those skills. I consider myself to be just a tad above the "hack" level at this. Which is why I understand where you are coming from and the warnings guys are giving you.
The good thing is, it is immensely satisfying and addicting, even when you know your work isn't great.
The one benefit I have despite lack of inherent skills in craftsmanship, is that I have a lot of time while away from home to study study study.
That is why I encourage groundwork first to learn the styles and architecture first, then plan and build a rifle.
It depends on your end goal. Is it just a functioning rifle, or is it a functioning rifle that looks right. Both will work fine and take deer, but only the second will result in a craftsman's pride.

Anyway, no disrespect taken. What guys are implying is that there is a lot to this if you choose to do it well.
So don't pick your barrel yet. Learn what barrel to pick first. That choice starts with function first, then what style to replicate because you like it and it fits.

Ask away, there's a bunch of guys here who want to get you hooked on flintlocks.....

Cheers,
Chowmi

 

[rushlake1]

It's all good!
This bunch wants to help the new guys not make the same mistakes we did........study study study.....

 

[Col. Batguano]

You mentioned a whole bunch of power tools in your shop. While a few are nice to have, most of what you will be doing will be done with hand tools. The exception(s) are a hand drill, and drill press.


A few exceptions CAN be used, but are certianly not necessary, as noted below;
The band saw is nice for those first rough cuts to get to a basic stock shape, and knock off the first few slabs.

An angle grinder can be used (with coarse sand paper) for rough shaping the stock once it's moving past the slab stage.

A dremel can be used for hogging out lock internals.

A random orbital sander can be used to level wood and inlaid metal such as strucheons and cheek inlays

A power hone can be used for sharpening tools, as well as gravers.

A pneumatic powered graver can be used to give you very good control in the engraving process, particularly for fine shading lines.

A milling machine can give you very clean lug and sight cuts.

A router is very handy for making the open groove portion of the RR channel.

But, apart from the band saw part, you don't really NEED any of this stuff to make an exceptionally fine LR. Machines work so fast that if you make a mistake, it can chew through your work and ruin hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars of investment. Just ask how may lock internals have been ruined by guys using dremels trying to save a little time

 

[Zonie]

By "lock internals", I assume you are speaking of the lock mortise in the stock?

I do use a Dremel to remove wood from that mortise but I mount my Dremel on a little router style base.
The base clamps the Dremel's body and holds it in a vertical direction.

Mounted this way and using a 1/4" diameter carbide straight side cutting bit it works very nicely but I will admit, I work slowly and carefully when using it.

I also use my Dremel with a flexible cable sold by Dremel.

This allows the cutting end to be positioned carefully while controlling it with finger pressure to remove or smooth up small amounts of wood.

I'll be the first to say, using a Dremel tool is asking for trouble if one isn't very careful and they try to rush things.
Just one kickback or touch of the cutter on the wrong area can cause instant damage.

 

[Ames]

"Just one kickback or touch of the cutter on the wrong area can cause instant damage."

To both the stock and your fingers.

 

[Col. Batguano]

yeah, but blood makes a fine base for glue.

I left power tools off the list that are basic for making parts, such as a chain saw for the tree, (and assuming you are not making your own steel), lathe and grinders for the barrel.