Had problem with smooth 50 shooting 8 in low at 25 yds. Cannot or will not file the turtle front sight any more. Acquaintance recommended filing the barrel in side on the bottom to raise the pattern instead of adding rear sight or bending. Actually seems to have worked and raised the pattern about 5 inches. Go slow and check with at least 5 rounds between. I stopped there and will shoot a bunch before any more adjustments. Any of you heard about this or have tried it.
-
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
Point of aim
- Thread starter stfilcek
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
Not filing inside the barrel but filing the edge away, I did that with success.
Britsmoothy.
Britsmoothy.
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,537
- Reaction score
- 89
Filing the muzzle of a smoothbore is the traditional way of doing this.
First, ALWAYS, look at the height of the comb on your stock. Adding height will raise your rear eye, and will then raise the POI for your pattern, everything else being equal.
Sometimes, moving your head back on the comb will raise the POI, as your eye will be higher off the stock. In that case, you may have to lengthen the stock, or increase the down pitch on the stock to let you mount the stock naturally.
Trap shooting shotguns often have a middle bead placed on top of the barrel, or rib of the gun, so that the two sights, middle and front, can be stacked into a " figure 8", and that will raise the patterns up, consistently with each shot.
So, you have a number of options to explore to raise the POI of your patterns. When I am helping fit a stock for another shooter, I stand in front of him holding the unloaded gun to his shoulder and point the bead at my eye. I look to see what part of the eye socket his pupil is located in. I check to see how much he is leaning forward on the stock, if at all. I check to see if he is mounting the gun first to his shoulder and then lowering his cheek to the comb. You should be mounting the gun to both the shoulder and the cheek in the same movement, and your head should Not drop! Looking through the center of your eye is easier on the muscles that focus the lens of the eye, and makes for better shooting.
When I think we have the gun mounting in the correct position, then I have the shooter close his eyes and mount the gun to his/her shoulder, and ONLY THEN let him open his eyes to see where his sights are actually located from this natural point. We repeat this exercises several times, and then adjust the stock further to make it fit him comfortably and come naturally to point.
Only after all these things are done to fit a stock to the shooter, do we consider filing on the muzzle to move the POI.
First, ALWAYS, look at the height of the comb on your stock. Adding height will raise your rear eye, and will then raise the POI for your pattern, everything else being equal.
Sometimes, moving your head back on the comb will raise the POI, as your eye will be higher off the stock. In that case, you may have to lengthen the stock, or increase the down pitch on the stock to let you mount the stock naturally.
Trap shooting shotguns often have a middle bead placed on top of the barrel, or rib of the gun, so that the two sights, middle and front, can be stacked into a " figure 8", and that will raise the patterns up, consistently with each shot.
So, you have a number of options to explore to raise the POI of your patterns. When I am helping fit a stock for another shooter, I stand in front of him holding the unloaded gun to his shoulder and point the bead at my eye. I look to see what part of the eye socket his pupil is located in. I check to see how much he is leaning forward on the stock, if at all. I check to see if he is mounting the gun first to his shoulder and then lowering his cheek to the comb. You should be mounting the gun to both the shoulder and the cheek in the same movement, and your head should Not drop! Looking through the center of your eye is easier on the muscles that focus the lens of the eye, and makes for better shooting.
When I think we have the gun mounting in the correct position, then I have the shooter close his eyes and mount the gun to his/her shoulder, and ONLY THEN let him open his eyes to see where his sights are actually located from this natural point. We repeat this exercises several times, and then adjust the stock further to make it fit him comfortably and come naturally to point.
Only after all these things are done to fit a stock to the shooter, do we consider filing on the muzzle to move the POI.
Capt. Jas.
58 Cal.
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2005
- Messages
- 3,049
- Reaction score
- 1,352
paulvallandigham said:
Actually... ONLY if the at comb is is increasing in height from comb to heel will the eye be higher by moving the head back. I have never seen a stock with that configuration except maybe a real Frenchy roman nosed gun with one heck of a camel hump.
paulvallandigham said:
The poster is asking about point of AIM which needs to be done first to get the tool performing like it should minus the human attachment. :thumbsup:
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,537
- Reaction score
- 89
II understand what you are saying, but have to disagree a bit.
A lot of shooters " Crawl " the stock, mounting it to their shoulders, and then lowering their heads to the stock. Sometimes they have to crawl the stock because the Length of Pull is too long. Sometimes they crawl to lean forward, and avoid the toe of the stock from stabbing them in the pectoral muscle.
This puts tremendous stress on the neck muscles and forces the eye to look out from under the eye brow, and, typical, the corner of the brow and nose. Both stresses cause the brain to want to get out of that position as fast as possible, and as you continue shooting like that, the muscles don't want to go back to the same position.
That makes consistency in pattern placement next to impossible over more than a couple of shots. Hunters often don't even notice this, as they fire so few shots, and are more willing to accept misses given all else that happens when a bird flushes.
Competition shooters do notice these things, as they fire lots of targets in a day, demanding the best of shooting form to succeed at end of the match as well as they shot at the first target.
For the stock crawlers, getting them to move the head back will also often cause the stock to move down on their cheek and jawbones, so that the eye is Higher than it was, without any physical change to the comb. It doesn't take much movement for the patterns to rise.
Most flinches cause the shooter to shoot over the target, because he lifts his head up off the stock in anticipation of recoil slapping his cheek. When he lifts that head, his forehand lifts the muzzle of the shotgun, too, and that is how the overshot miss occurs.
For years I have shot a stock that has too little drop at heel, and about half the stock ends up above my shoulder. I use it because it had the higher comb I needed to get my patterns on rising clays. But, when my custom Fowler was made, the additional drop at heel was done, and putting that gun to my shoulder feels like putting a well loved, and used glove on my hand. I can mount that gun with my eyes closed, and when they open, I am looking down the center of the barrel, and the front bead is aligned with my low rear sight.
I still see lots of good shotgun shooters mounting their guns low, and bending their head down to crawl the stock to shoot. They practice endlessly, and burn up a lot more shells than I have time to shoot, or afford. They are very good, but they only occasionally actually win a match.
A lot of shooters " Crawl " the stock, mounting it to their shoulders, and then lowering their heads to the stock. Sometimes they have to crawl the stock because the Length of Pull is too long. Sometimes they crawl to lean forward, and avoid the toe of the stock from stabbing them in the pectoral muscle.
This puts tremendous stress on the neck muscles and forces the eye to look out from under the eye brow, and, typical, the corner of the brow and nose. Both stresses cause the brain to want to get out of that position as fast as possible, and as you continue shooting like that, the muscles don't want to go back to the same position.
That makes consistency in pattern placement next to impossible over more than a couple of shots. Hunters often don't even notice this, as they fire so few shots, and are more willing to accept misses given all else that happens when a bird flushes.
Competition shooters do notice these things, as they fire lots of targets in a day, demanding the best of shooting form to succeed at end of the match as well as they shot at the first target.
For the stock crawlers, getting them to move the head back will also often cause the stock to move down on their cheek and jawbones, so that the eye is Higher than it was, without any physical change to the comb. It doesn't take much movement for the patterns to rise.
Most flinches cause the shooter to shoot over the target, because he lifts his head up off the stock in anticipation of recoil slapping his cheek. When he lifts that head, his forehand lifts the muzzle of the shotgun, too, and that is how the overshot miss occurs.
For years I have shot a stock that has too little drop at heel, and about half the stock ends up above my shoulder. I use it because it had the higher comb I needed to get my patterns on rising clays. But, when my custom Fowler was made, the additional drop at heel was done, and putting that gun to my shoulder feels like putting a well loved, and used glove on my hand. I can mount that gun with my eyes closed, and when they open, I am looking down the center of the barrel, and the front bead is aligned with my low rear sight.
I still see lots of good shotgun shooters mounting their guns low, and bending their head down to crawl the stock to shoot. They practice endlessly, and burn up a lot more shells than I have time to shoot, or afford. They are very good, but they only occasionally actually win a match.
Capt. Jas.
58 Cal.
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2005
- Messages
- 3,049
- Reaction score
- 1,352
Yep, we disagree. I cant (wont)reply to all you brought up in that last epistle but I will be glad to take some PM's from stfilcek or others if anyone would like some help.
:hatsoff:
Capt. Jas, NRA Shotgun Instructor
:hatsoff:
Capt. Jas, NRA Shotgun Instructor
Many Klatch
69 Cal.
- Joined
- May 19, 2006
- Messages
- 3,498
- Reaction score
- 268
I have never heard of anyone filing the barrel on the inside. The problem with smoothbores shooting low is pretty simple the breech is real thick and the muzzle is real thin so you are actually aiming down hill. Most of us just bend the barrel a bit and then work on the sights. Just do the bending in easy stages and shoot a few before doing anymore bending.
Many Klatch
Many Klatch
Thanks all for the reply's. Have lots of barrel left and the front sights are back a bit if this goes wrong but creating uneven pressure at the muzzle seems to be raising things well. The pattern was nice and tight just low. Only wondering if anyone had experience doing this so could give suggestions or refinements. The barrel is thick at the muzzle and was made by a fine old gent named Cotton and I don't want to change much that shows.
