Poor man’s guns

[bpd303]

I proof test all the guns that I work on and have never had one fail with the 300% load.

 

[M. De Land]

I proof test all the guns that I work on and have never had one fail with the 300% load.

I wonder how they would fair at 0 to 20 degrees F?

 

[bpd303]

I wonder how they would fair at 0 to 20 degrees F?

I've shot them in temperatures like that and 100 degrees F also never had a problem. Of course now I'm a lot older and wiser so I don't play in those kind of temperatures any longer.

 

[M. De Land]

I was referring to the 300 percent overload testing !

I've shot them in temperatures like that and 100 degrees F also never had a problem. Of course now I'm a lot older and wiser so I don't play in those kind of temperatures any lon

 

[BlackRock52]

I remember in the 1960s that you became the laughing stock and brunt of jokes if you showed up with a muzzleloader for the hunting trip. But I bagged my deer though. So no surprise if a person thought making their ML look more modern might lead to less embarrassment. But a shorter carbine like ML might actually be handy in dense underbrush or a forest too.

One other thought was during the Great Depression and WW2 trying to find cartridges might have been an exercise of futility. All companies were all in on war time production thus nothing for the civilian market. A flintlock was very valuable at the time. They would even make their own black powder too.

When I was young in the sixties and seventies most everyone was still quite frugal with their cartridge expenditures. A box of twenty would last you for several years or longer. One to three rounds to check the rifle’s accuracy and then one round for the deer and so on. Some guys would shoot one round per deer season with no target practice. Granted you might shoot another round for an elk or for a bear too. In the state I lived in at the time you could only get a permit for one big game animal a year. Thus a box of ammo could really last a long time. I knew some folks that back during the Great Depression used one .22rimfire round for a hunt to bag a rabbit for the cooking stove too. That box of 50 had to last a long time as money was very tight.

Not like today where some guys can almost shoot out their barrel target practicing and then fire off that one round for bagging a big game animal.

My self sufficient uncle(todays off the grid person) lived through that time. Besides rabbits, his .22 was also used for pats(grouse). He would wait for them to roost and then start from the bottom of the tree. He would use .22 shorts and the remaining birds would not fly away as long as the birds did not see one fall. He could harvest several and not only kept his family in meat but helped some neighbors as well. All of them shared what they had with others...the .22 came in handy to dispatch critters on his trap line, too.

 

[cebusey]

And some do gooder complained about the sign that said " ***** Mountain" on I 68 and it was removed!
People do not bother to investigate local history before "going off" on the locals.
My ancestors the Lynn's were part of the group.
Lee(?) Teter did a painting of it years ago.
The frontiersman man have been Col. Cresap's servant and/ or friend whose name was Nemesis or Caesar.

The town where I lived there was a monument in front of the court house. It listed the names of some young men who fought and died for the South. Outsiders pissed and moaned so much that the weak politians gave in and removed the monument. Jackasses didn't even notice or care that on the same monument were the names of young men who died fighting for the Union. Same pc revisionist idocy.

 

[tenngun]

I wonder about safety on differnt barrel types.
When I moved to Arkansas .40 was the minimum to hunt deer with, I had a .54
A .54 even with a moderate load is more powerful then a .40 loaded hot. Yet lots of deer turned French with a well placed .40 ball. One shot quickly dead deer
A .54 is a pretty powerful round ball gun. It was a favorite of plains guns.
A .40 is a pea shooter
Yet, inspite of ‘better’ .54, lots of bellies got full cause a .40 did the job, and did it well.
A deer ain’t deader because of a .54
If. DOM barrel out of Indian mystery metal holds the charge and doesn’t blow up, how is the very best metal one knows of be safer?
Barrel a and barrel b both hold the same charge, what makes barrel b super dopper shooter metal safer then mystery metal if the both don’t blow

 

[M. De Land]

I wonder about safety on differnt barrel types.
When I moved to Arkansas .40 was the minimum to hunt deer with, I had a .54
A .54 even with a moderate load is more powerful then a .40 loaded hot. Yet lots of deer turned French with a well placed .40 ball. One shot quickly dead deer
A .54 is a pretty powerful round ball gun. It was a favorite of plains guns.
A .40 is a pea shooter
Yet, inspite of ‘better’ .54, lots of bellies got full cause a .40 did the job, and did it well.
A deer ain’t deader because of a .54
If. DOM barrel out of Indian mystery metal holds the charge and doesn’t blow up, how is the very best metal one knows of be safer?
Barrel a and barrel b both hold the same charge, what makes barrel b super dopper shooter metal safer then mystery metal if the both don’t blow

With anything that produces pressure enough to kill or maim the prudent thing is to error on the side of caution using steel alloys designed for the purpose intended and stress encountered !
Steel alloy used for gun barrels is subjected to accumulative stress in all sorts of temperature ranges and climatic conditions which can and does effect efficiency as well as safety.
Metallurgists are taught and know this fact and make guide lines for manufactures to follow to prevent accidents.
I've read numerous accident reports on fatalities and mame-ings from gun failures almost always involving use of barrels made of unsuitable metal and over loads.
The intelligent bet should go with suitable steel alloys designed for the intended purpose.

 

[bpd303]

I was referring to the 300 percent overload testing !

No I never had the opportunity to proof test in temperatures lower than 20 ° F. The lowest temperature I remember testing in was 24° F and the barrel came through with flying colors.
When I test any barrel I mike the barrel in 2 inch increments along it's entire length prior to and after the test. I have never had any barrel show any sign of stress/bulging.

 

[tenngun]

With anything that produces pressure enough to kill or maim the prudent thing is to error on the side of caution using steel alloys designed for the purpose intended and stress encountered !
Steel alloy used for gun barrels is subjected to accumulative stress in all sorts of temperature ranges and climatic conditions which can and does effect efficiency as well as safety.
Metallurgists are taught and know this fact and make guide lines for manufactures to follow to prevent accidents.
I've read numerous accident reports on fatalities and mame-ings from gun failures almost always involving use of barrels made of unsuitable metal and over loads.
The intelligent bet should go with suitable steel alloys designed for the intended purpose.

All the evidence is that cared for and loaded properly even double or triple loaded are completely safe

 

[yellowhammer]

I recently "re-discovered" a Jack Garner .45 Tennessee rifle I ordered back in '76. It's delightful to hold, very slender and light. Haven't used it in years, it was hanging up for a long while, now it will be put back in action on paper targets. (I had the 42" bbl. shortened to 33" years ago, and don't regret it! )

Pic please

 

[longcruise]

Metallurgists are taught and know this fact and make guide lines for manufactures to follow to prevent accidents.

I'm not starting or joining a pi$$ing match here but I have an unanswered question that I will answer myself.

The question was what PSI number is the certified barrel steel tested to. The answer that is adequately answered by any suppository loading manual where one can look up the PSI of max loads for any given caliber. Without detailing the data, it runs as high as 64,000 PSI. I am certain that the PSI standard for barrel steel will exceed that. Probably by a good safety margin.

And, of course, users have exceeded the safety margin of those steels and blown splinters and even steel into their faces. I had this happen next to me during a shooting session. Very unnerving!!

Likewise users of ml guns have had disasters due to negligence or just plain stupidity. Neither the modern or ml gun users experienced these events due to the safety aspect of the steel in the barrels. It's exceeding the common sense of following recommended loads or loading procedures that took them to their incidents.

PSI levels have been measured on ml guns and they don't come anywhere near the pressures of modern ammunition. Thousands of ml guns are fired tens of thousands of times each year with barrel failures being rare and caused by user error. It's clear that the steel used by ml barrel makers is safe when used in accordance with the makers recommendations and not only that, remain safe with errors of a scale that can never be tolerated by modern ammunition fired in certified barrel steel. Try an accidental double load in your big game ml gun and try the same in a 30-06!!!

I think the concerns over 12L14 are not warranted.

 

[tenngun]

I'm not starting or joining a pi$$ing match here but I have an unanswered question that I will answer myself.

The question was what PSI number is the certified barrel steel tested to. The answer that is adequately answered by any suppository loading manual where one can look up the PSI of max loads for any given caliber. Without detailing the data, it runs as high as 64,000 PSI. I am certain that the PSI standard for barrel steel will exceed that. Probably by a good safety margin.

And, of course, users have exceeded the safety margin of those steels and blown splinters and even steel into their faces. I had this happen next to me during a shooting session. Very unnerving!!

Likewise users of ml guns have had disasters due to negligence or just plain stupidity. Neither the modern or ml gun users experienced these events due to the safety aspect of the steel in the barrels. It's exceeding the common sense of following recommended loads or loading procedures that took them to their incidents.

And those failures are shooter not barrel
I’ve been shooting unproofed guns almost fifty years, I reckon I’m safe enough, as long as I’m safe enough

 

[longcruise]

All the evidence is that cared for and loaded properly even double or triple loaded are completely safe

Agreed. As for the DOM, I don't know anything about it and wouldn't know it if it bit me on the butt.

 

[M. De Land]

I'm not starting or joining a pi$$ing match here but I have an unanswered question that I will answer myself.

The question was what PSI number is the certified barrel steel tested to. The answer that is adequately answered by any suppository loading manual where one can look up the PSI of max loads for any given caliber. Without detailing the data, it runs as high as 64,000 PSI. I am certain that the PSI standard for barrel steel will exceed that. Probably by a good safety margin.

And, of course, users have exceeded the safety margin of those steels and blown splinters and even steel into their faces. I had this happen next to me during a shooting session. Very unnerving!!

Likewise users of ml guns have had disasters due to negligence or just plain stupidity. Neither the modern or ml gun users experienced these events due to the safety aspect of the steel in the barrels. It's exceeding the common sense of following recommended loads or loading procedures that took them to their incidents.

PSI levels have been measured on ml guns and they don't come anywhere near the pressures of modern ammunition. Thousands of ml guns are fired tens of thousands of times each year with barrel failures being rare and caused by user error. It's clear that the steel used by ml barrel makers is safe when used in accordance with the makers recommendations and not only that, remain safe with errors of a scale that can never be tolerated by modern ammunition fired in certified barrel steel. Try an accidental double load in your big game ml gun and try the same in a 30-06!!!

I think the concerns over 12L14 are not warranted.

I was leery about my 12 L14 Douglas barreled .54 after reading a metallurgist report after multiple Douglas barrel failures and law suites. I then witnessed one (not Douglas barrel) come apart in a match I was participating in. I was quick to investigate and establish all the loading and handling criteria surrounding the incident from the owner and close shooting friend. I also asked to take the gun home and make a thorough examination of it investigating the maker , barrel manufacture and type of steel used.
This gun had been made about 30-40 years ago of 12L14 alloy and apparently shot quite a lot from the wear indications on it. It split in two seems in the swamped portion from a moderate charge and short started patched ball. My layman's diagnosis after examination and incident invesitgtion was barrel fatigue in 12 L 14 low shock load resistance ,steel alloy. The 12 stands for the percent of carbon .12% , the L stands for the lead alloyed and the 14 stands for the .14 % of sulfur content. The lead and sulfur make the alloy wonderfully machinable.
The Shock load resistance number is approximately 5 on the notched hoop stress testing scale in comparison to 4140 with a hoop stress resistance number of approximately 42 if memory serves.
My responsibility is to inform of potential safety hazard the rest is up to the judgement of the makers and shooters.

 

[TFoley]

The town where I lived there was a monument in front of the court house. It listed the names of some young men who fought and died for the South. Outsiders ****** and moaned so much that the weak politians gave in and removed the monument. Jackasses didn't even notice or care that on the same monument were the names of young men who died fighting for the Union. Same pc revisionist idocy.

All were Americans, though, right?

 

[longcruise]

I was leery about my 12 L14 Douglas barreled .54 after reading a metallurgist report after multiple Douglas barrel failures and law suites. I then witnessed one (not Douglas barrel) come apart in a match I was participating in. I was quick to investigate and establish all the loading and handling criteria surrounding the incident from the owner and close shooting friend. I also asked to take the gun home and make a thorough examination of it investigating the maker , barrel manufacture and type of steel used.
This gun had been made about 30-40 years ago of 12L14 alloy and apparently shot quite a lot from the wear indications on it. It split in two seems in the swamped portion from a moderate charge and short started patched ball. My layman's diagnosis after examination and incident invesitgtion was barrel fatigue in 12 L 14 low shock load resistance ,steel alloy. The 12 stands for the percent of carbon .12% , the L stands for the lead alloyed and the 14 stands for the .14 % of sulfur content. The lead and sulfur make the alloy wonderfully machinable.
The Shock load resistance number is approximately 5 on the notched hoop stress testing scale in comparison to 4140 with a hoop stress resistance number of approximately 42 if memory serves.
My responsibility is to inform of potential safety hazard the rest is up to the judgement of the makers and shooters.

Interesting stuff there. Especially, at least to me, the derivation of the 12L14 nomenclature.

I have to wonder about the Douglas barrel to-do. How many barrels, circumstances of each, etc. I noted the blow up that took place next to me. The guy was shooting cast bullets with a fast pistol powder. He had been there shooting before I arrived. I immediately went to him to check him out. His face was full of splinters. Pure luck that none were in his eyes. I quizzed him on his ammo, etc. NOW, here is the pertinent part of the story. I suggested it was probably a double charge. His immediate reaction was denial. Not to me, but to himself. No way was this his doing. Wonder if he sued anyone?

So what we're the individual stories of each of those Douglas incidents? And, how do we know what the actual facts are? What was the outcome of all the suits? How many suits? How many barrels were in use? How many are still in use? How many Douglas barrels have blown up in the past ten years? 20 years? 30 years?

 

[cebusey]

All were Americans, though, right?

Those listed on the monument - yes. The folks protesting the against the monument - can't say - but they were not local for the most part. It's a small town on the eastern shore of Maryland. A world away from the western shore/ Baltimore/ greater Washington DC area.

 

[M. De Land]

Those listed on the monument - yes. The folks protesting the against the monument - can't say - but they were not local for the most part. It's a small town on the eastern shore of Maryland. A world away from the western shore/ Baltimore/ greater Washington DC area.

Washington DC is not legally America anyway, it is a separate entity, a corporation of it's own, DC stands for District of Columbia! Most Americans are not aware of this fact ! Same deal with the City of London and the Vatican. They are legally out side of the countries they reside in.

 

[TFoley]

Washington DC is not legally America anyway, it is a separate entity, a corporation of it's own, DC stands for District of Columbia! Most Americans are not aware of this fact ! Same deal with the City of London and the Vatican. They are legally out side of the countries they reside in.

While I cannot speak for the Vatican City, I can, as a resident here in UK, speak about the City of London.

Sir, you are wrong in your assertion that the city of London is somehow 'outside' the country in which it is located.

Please read - 'The City of London is a district of Greater London. The city's boundaries have remained almost unchanged since the Middle Ages. Although it is now only a small part of the metropolis, it is a notable part of central London. The City holds city status in its own right, and is also a ceremonial county. Often referred to as the City, or the Square Mile, it is just over one square mile, 1.12 sq mi (2.90 km2) in area.

It is here in the City of London where most of the United Kingdom's financial trade is done. It is a very small area, only a square mile, and has a very small resident population (8,000). However, many people come to work here and during the day it can be very busy, with some 300,000 people in it.

"London" now refers to Greater London, which is made up of 32 boroughs (including the City of Westminster and the City of London). The city is in central London and is the oldest part of the city, dating back to Roman times. The City of London has its own mayor, the Lord Mayor of London, an office separate from (and much older than) the Mayor of London. There are other ancient features, dating back to medieval times. The city has its own police force, the City of London Police.'