Position of flash hole

[tg]

There always has and always will be some gentle proding back and forth between the entry level guns guys and the higher level gun guys, human nature knows no entry or custom level behavior

 

[Larry Pletcher]

A smith from Col. Williamsburg discussed this with me some time back. He reminded me that the Col. gun makers drilled the vent first so the barrel could be proofed. Then the gun was built around the vent. He mentioned that in the movie "The Gunsmith of Williamsburg" Wallace can be seen eye-balling the location of the lock plate. Building in this order probably introduces a variation in the vent location.

This comment is not meant to add to any "side", but simply to show that we probably are much pickier about vent location than the early smiths. My own testing of vent locations makes me less worried about this than I was lead to believe.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[rabjr]

:haha: I put a couple hundred more than $600 just in parts when I build a gun. As always, you get exactly what you pay for.

Thanks for the reminder. Give yourself a hand. :applause: :haha:

Your exactly right Carl, lets give Mike another hand, he deserves it. :applause: :wink:

 

[Mike Brooks]

I've participated in these discussions before, I think I'll be silent from here on out on this thread. :haha:

 

[Dphar]

ebiggs, some people are just elitists...and its worse on public websites where some people hide behind distant keyboards attempting to "lord" their opinions over everybody else.

And some people think they are experts because they can swap parts on a factory made rifle with interchangable parts.
My problem is not with the TC. Its with people expecting someone to make a sidelock ML for 600 bucks in todays market that will work like its supposed to every time. No fouling/oil traps in the breech, no dovetails so deep the barrel splits in the bottom of the cut. Barrels that do not burst right at the breech. Vents in the proper place etc etc etc.
TC had SERIOUS "teething problems" 40 years ago if you don't recall. And quite a few people got hurt.
They were not the only ones with problems.
A friend of mine started to turn a drum (it was shaped like a lug on the side of the barrel) from the barrel of an "entry level" import back in the mid-1970s and it turned a 1/4 turn and FELL OUT.
Lots of these were sold. It was brought to the gunsmith because of erratic ignition, he had been shooting it. I think I saw a photo of something very similar except in flint, that someone just bought and was going to shoot. Starting to get my drift? This things are STILL OUT THERE.
I blew out a nipple, in teens, from the only factory made I ever owned. A friend blew a nipple from a Bill Large Hawken breech, improper design. Carried powder grains visible in his nose to the grave.
You can call me an elitist if you want but I am careful about where I stand at rifle matches.
I saw a guy come within a hares breath of blowing his head off 15 feet from me when his "quality" factory made fell out of 1/2 cock with the butt on the ground. Fortunately it was angled slightly away from his head. I was sure there would be a hole in his hat brim but it missed that too somehow.
I have had very good locks with flies improperly adjusted. I found this out as a teenager when I had an AD when the cock caught in a vine and was drawn back far enough to kick the fly forward but not catch the full cock notch. I felt it catch the vine but it fired before I could stop moving.
I learned to shape flys after that.
I am pretty sure I can test 10 locks on factory mades and find a failure or 2. But the average buyer don't even know what he is supposed to check. Much less how.

I have seen things and read/been told about more to the point I would not shoot a factory made if it was GIVEN to me.

I don't hide behind my keyboard you KNOW my name and I can be found with very little detective work. You on the other hand are hiding behind a "handle". I figure if I am going to post people have a right to know who I am. I don't post anything I feel I need to apologize for. If you get through Montana anytime look me up, I am in the phonebook. I am about a 1/2 mile from Shiloh Rifle's front door.

I am planning to attend the CLA show next year.

My ENTIRE point here was that a 600 dollar gun is NOT expensive anymore. I can spend 75+ bucks just putting fuel in my pickup for a grocery run.

Dan

 

[jethro224]

And if the fuel neck didn't quite line up with the access door in the side of that pickup it would be expected since it is just a factory produced vehicle?



:surrender: :dead:

 

[ebiggs1]

Jethro224 you made my point. $75 bucks and $600 bucks is a lot of money, at least to me.
Dan I am sure you coustom guns are works of art.
And you are right, I am too new to know what I am doing. Nevertheless the Thompson Center is a well made gun. I am not so new I can't see that! And, I will tell all about how they treat me.

 

[GreyWhiskers]

We have to take into consideration the cost-saving advantages of being able to mass produce parts. A company like T/C can produce a quality part at a portion of the cost that a small company can.

And there's the difference between mass produced and custom. If I want to build an engine for my Chevy truck with all the goodies I can easily spend $4000 in parts and machining, then put it together myself. But, I can buy a brand new engine from GM for $1900 that will last me another 200K miles.

My "entry level" TC has been working well for 33 years now with thousands of shots thru it. GW

 

[the11]

I am a newbie, but for what it's worth: One of the good things about a factory gun is that the customer should be able to reasonably expect that it will function "out of the box". Therefore, when it does not, the customer is reasonable in sending it back to said factory to have it fixed.

To all custom makers/users out there: We get it. Our guns are not as good as a fine custom made. We did not expect that they would be. We are not stupid. But I am not getting your point. It almost sounds like you are saying that if we end up with a defective product, we should just live with it rather than try to get the manufacturer to fix it. You seem to be suggesting that ebiggs' expectation that his rifle should actually work is unrealistic. Sorry. That just don't compute.

If it was me, I'd be sending it back. And it might be me as I am a bit worried about the position of the vent in my GPR kit. But I am going to try to resolve the issue myself if I can. But if it doesn't work because of the vent position, I'll be calling Lyman.

 

[jan buck]

you cannot get away from the human error factor-whether factory or custom. mistakes will happen.
i work in a foundry, in my plant we produce brake rotors and we have rejects come back frequently.

granted ppm is rather small. as i recall, didn't roundball have to send his custom rifle back to the maker?

 

I am a newbie, but for what it's worth: One of the good things about a factory gun is that the customer should be able to reasonably expect that it will function "out of the box".

That's right. All these, "my parts cost more than that" comments are irrelevant. Nobody cares what the parts for a custom made gun cost. What they care about is value for their dollar.

The parts for a Ferrari cost more than the parts for a Chevy, but you still expect a minimum level of quality and functionality in the "cheaper" car.

 

[Dphar]

We have to take into consideration the cost-saving advantages of being able to mass produce parts. A company like T/C can produce a quality part at a portion of the cost that a small company can.

And there's the difference between mass produced and custom. If I want to build an engine for my Chevy truck with all the goodies I can easily spend $4000 in parts and machining, then put it together myself. But, I can buy a brand new engine from GM for $1900 that will last me another 200K miles.

My "entry level" TC has been working well for 33 years now with thousands of shots thru it. GW

And I have heard reports of people having to pull the new GM engine (a 350) down because when it was built in Mexico they did not bother to completely remove all the casting sand.

This is the same problem as misplaced vents, fouling trap breeches etc etc. Shortcuts dictated by price, uncaring or even disgruntled employees or poor quality control.
This does not mean that all "GoodWrench" engines are full of sand or that all TCs have misplaced vents etc. But its more likely to occur at the lower end of the spectrum that at the upper end.

The problem here is a consumer who whats the cheapest possible ML, after all its just a ML its not a real gun. So it should be cheaper than a modern breechloader.
So they buy cheap as they can. Then they complain that the vent is out of place, or it misfires because a sloppily fit breech traps oil/fouling and contaminates the powder etc etc.
To be honest it is fairly difficult to find a perfectly made ML and finding a properly made factory gun is impossible.

Here is a small tutorial in breeching for anyone who might be interested.
This is a Browning Mountain Rifle breech that featured a fouling trap as indicated by the rust at the face of the breech.

Think this is limited to "factory mades"?
This is the plug installed by a well known barrel maker for the "custom trade". Not much if at all better. But like many in the trade they also build for lowest price. Besides breeches never blow out so who cares. At least thats the attitude I have seen in posts on the WWW by the maker.
Note the fouling around the rebate in front of the threads. It was packed full but some staid in the barrel when the plug was removed.

Cleaned up it looks like this.

Kinda crude looking actually considering it was made by "experts".

This a pair of patent breeches that were installed in the barrels of a swivel breech. They have not been shot much, 20 rounds each maybe. The threads were coated with anti-sieze when last installed.
They have no fouling present since the threaded portion was tightly fit against the inside shoulder of the 50 caliber barrels.
It forms a seal. This takes a lot more time. At least an hour more per barrel even if the tang is already machined on the plug but there is no fouling trap to hold fouling, cleaning solvents or oil.

This is a shop made plug in processing. Note the print of the end of the rifling on the "blue". This forms a good seal and there is no way for anything to pass it. This is a 5/8 plug for a 50 caliber Green Mountain barrel.

This can easily be done with files and a felt tip marker when fitting a store bought plug.
But few bother or even *know* they should. Some will say its not necessary, some get really wadded up when doing things in this manner. But I have this perfectionist streak and like to do things the way I see fit. I don't like leaky breech threads or leaky nipple seats or leaky vent liners. Seen em all over the years. Some in guns I made and then had to fix later.

You will note that the breech with the fouling on it is unpitted when cleaned. BP fouling if cut off from absorbing water by low humidity or oil will is not corrosive. Had this barrel been used with one of the perchlorate "replica" powders it would have looked much worse oil or no.
The bottom line is this. Poor shop practice is poor shop practice no matter who does it. But its impossible to promote proper shop practice when a great many makers and buyers have the "thats good enough" attitude.
So we have a plethora of poorly made MLs I can't force myself the stand next to when they are shot.
Some of the import crap was REALLY bad some were not quite as. Was hard for the layman to tell just by looking sometimes.
Some of the factory mades, like the first CVA Mountain Rifle which were actually pretty good. Some were ABYSMAL. Some still get shivers over the early years of the TC Hawken. But they improved.

Dan

 

[Stumpkiller]

This a pair of patent breeches that were installed in the barrels of a swivel breech. They have not been shot much, 20 rounds each maybe. The threads were coated with anti-sieze when last installed.

Should have used JB Paste instead of anti-sieze. That'd plug that crud trap! :haha: (Don't try this at home, kids).

I imagine the back-set vent's on the T/C are a case of the jig for the stock-duplicator being at one end of the tolerance while the jig for the vent drill-press was at the opposite end of its tolerance settings. Functional, but not too pretty. Probably none of the QC engineers knew enough Spanish to get the assembler to talk it out with the machinists when they spotted a problem . . . or to look for a problem.

Manufactured and assembled in the US. But by who?

 

[ebiggs1]

Boy you need to slow down and smell the roses! What a rant but I get the picture, now, Thompson Center sucks. They should be closed down before anyone gets hurt.

 

[ebiggs1]

Oh,and BTW, I don't hide behind a "handle" either.

 

[GreyWhiskers]

Dan,

I think we agree that the human element can either make or break the rifle that's being built, whether it's a custom flinter or a GPR. Modern machining methods remove alot of that human element. That's one of the reasons you can buy a decent shooting rifle for $600. Not a lot of labor involved.

By your own admission, you're a perfectionist. Thank goodness there's guys like ya. I wouldn't expect ya to settle for a factory built rifle.

I've shot the same TC rifle kit for 33 years now without any hitches. And now I'm building an Early Lancaster rifle. I'm sure I'll feel more of a connection to this rifle since it'll be so much more work. But I can only hope it gives me the same reliability that my cheap factory rifle has given me.

GW

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Boy you need to slow down and smell the roses! What a rant but I get the picture, now, Thompson Center sucks. They should be closed down before anyone gets hurt.

I thought the point was that you get what you pay for.

 

[tg]

Seems to me lke the forum has run its course all the old topics and arguements are here but with different names asking and answering the questions.

 

[DanChamberlain]

I only have 4 muzzleloading long guns. 3 are Pedersoli and one is an Investarms Lyman GPR. All perform very well. Perhaps, ignorance is bliss since I haven't fired a $2000 custom flinter. If I did...I'd probably be sacrificing my children's education to squirrel away enough money to buy one. Or...maybe not.

I try not to make comments on a forum that I wouldn't make across a fire from a hunting partner. And I'd never tell someone that their gun isn't up to standards, particularly if I didn't know their financial situation.

"You get what you pay for" is probably close to being the height of rudeness. I wouldn't shoot or hunt with someone who routinely used it to make a point. And I'd never buy a gun from them either.

Dan Chamberlain

 

[jan buck]

I only have 4 muzzleloading long guns. 3 are Pedersoli and one is an Investarms Lyman GPR. All perform very well. Perhaps, ignorance is bliss since I haven't fired a $2000 custom flinter. If I did...I'd probably be sacrificing my children's education to squirrel away enough money to buy one. Or...maybe not.

I try not to make comments on a forum that I wouldn't make across a fire from a hunting partner. And I'd never tell someone that their gun isn't up to standards, particularly if I didn't know their financial situation.

"You get what you pay for" is probably close to being the height of rudeness. I wouldn't shoot or hunt with someone who routinely used it to make a point. And I'd never buy a gun from them either.

Dan Chamberlain

well put.
for me these-entry level guns- has allowed my son and i some awesome times together. buying used tc rifles for 170.00 got us in to the sport. and we have a ball.

do i want a custom long rifle? you bet. and some day i will have one. but right now with the economy the way it is, just not feasable. :wink: