Position of flash hole

[Mike Brooks]

"You get what you pay for" is probably close to being the height of rudeness. I wouldn't shoot or hunt with someone who routinely used it to make a point. And I'd never buy a gun from them either.

Well, lost another customer due to my honesty.... :wink: I used to fix low end junk for local guys, but I burnt out on that pretty quickly. I fixed alot of hatfield rifles, pretty crappy stuff. I fixed (or attempted to) many of the "semi custom" guns every one seems to think are so wonderful. Locks not against the barrel, ram rod holes filled with body putty, trigger pulls so heavy only a gorilla could pull it, locks so poorly inlet they wouldn't function....I could go on and on. The owner would always say I paid $900 for this gun and it doesn't work! I never failed to point out they got what they paid for. Most of them eventually had me build them a real gun.

 

[tg]

I believe there are two worlds and mindsets here that will never really completely understand where the other is comming from, I have had over two dozen ML's over the years most were factory and they did the job, but when I got into well balanced swamped barrels well tuned locks and such there is a world of difference, in ease and comfort of handling and if the old PC/HC thing is an issue and it became one for me after 20 years or so then there is little question which fits the mold. I think both sides can get a bit peevish at times as I said before human nature does not take well to some forms of expression of opinions be they right or wrong, we are always very protective of what we believe in and have in hand and mind at a given time.

 

[grampaJ]

No, you dont get what you've paid for and that's the shorthair of it. Sometimes you get more when comments or queries go on and on, ad inf. And sometimes you get less like when you raise a question about something that doesn't look right. In either case, lets not fall out over it. I'm learning, thank you all for the opportunity. GrampaJ in NC :hatsoff:

 

Seems to me lke the forum has run its course all the old topics and arguements are here but with different names asking and answering the questions.

It must be terrible to know everything and have no reason to interact with others? BYE! :hatsoff:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I only have 4 muzzleloading long guns. 3 are Pedersoli and one is an Investarms Lyman GPR. All perform very well. Perhaps, ignorance is bliss since I haven't fired a $2000 custom flinter. If I did...I'd probably be sacrificing my children's education to squirrel away enough money to buy one. Or...maybe not.

I try not to make comments on a forum that I wouldn't make across a fire from a hunting partner. And I'd never tell someone that their gun isn't up to standards, particularly if I didn't know their financial situation.

"You get what you pay for" is probably close to being the height of rudeness. I wouldn't shoot or hunt with someone who routinely used it to make a point. And I'd never buy a gun from them either.

Dan Chamberlain

"You get what you pay for" isn't even close to the heighth of rudeness. It is a simple statement of fact. I would make that statement across any campfire anywhere at anytime.

Dan Phariss' photos show one very important reason why a hand built custom costs more than a mass produced gun and why it is worth every penny. Fit and finish issues where you CAN'T see them are more important than the ones you can. And even the best factory guns don't have the breeching that they should have. I stand by my statement and offer no apologies for it. Quality simply costs more and always has.

Too bad about the gun buying thing. I rarely sell one of mine, but when I do, the buyer gets a fine, well made gun with its parts correctly fitted and for a fair price. Not sure why you wouldn't want a rifle or fowler of this description, but I do have a couple of mass produced safe queens of typical so-so quality that you might prefer. I'll keep you in mind if I ever decide to dump--ah--sell them to such a discerning connoisseur of the mundane as yourself. Now, that WAS rude! :wink:

 

[tg]

"It must be terrible to know everything and have no reason to interact with others? BYE!"

Well fella, my point was that is there is enough stuff on this forum that if new folks were to try a search there would likely be very little traffic on a day to day basis,(I did not suggest this) sorry if that struck you the wrong way, and if what we see on many posts is "interacting with others" it may not be something as great as you seem to think it is, and the BYE in capitol letters was a fine touch, a great example of interaction, here's your sign :bow: now where is that ignore button????

 

[Claude Mathis]

...my point was that is there is enough stuff on this forum that if new folks were to try a search there would likely be very little traffic on a day to day basis,...

Since there is no single answer for some questions, it's not realistic to suggest that all the questions have been answered and that no one should ask them again. That, coupled with the fact that there are new people joining every day, who may have a new perspective and new information on an old topic, there seems to be reason enough for some questions to be repeated. IMHO

 

[the11]

I used to run a wilderness camp that featured horseback riding, wilderness pack trips, etc. as it's program. It is in Southern Alberta's cow country. And there I ran into two kinds of attitudes among the cowboys (the real ones that is). There were those who set a great deal of stock in their own "steet cred" and looked down their noses at anyone who they saw as an interloper. Sniff at their horses, their cheap mass produced saddles, their hats, their boots, their chaps ... you get the idea. Then there were those who accepted you as you came to them, and were grateful to find someone from outside of their circles who was interested in learning, and preserving cowboy skills. They would teach you about what made a good saddle good, without calling yours crap.

I knew an old saddle maker who often got asked to fix people's store bought rigs. He did so without criticizing their purchase. He would put on the coffee while he worked on their saddle, and just visit, and subtly teach. As a result of his approach, he sold a lot of his handmade, beautiful, tough, and functional works of art to these people. One of my biggest regrets is that I didn't beg, borrow or steal the money to get him to build me one before the cancer got him. Anyway, I learned a lot from him. And I learned a lot from those who sniffed at my gear when I first started out.

 

[Claude Mathis]

I used to run a wilderness camp that featured horseback riding, wilderness pack trips, etc. as it's program. It is in Southern Alberta's cow country. And there I ran into two kinds of attitudes among the cowboys (the real ones that is). There were those who set a great deal of stock in their own "steet cred" and looked down their noses at anyone who they saw as an interloper. Sniff at their horses, their cheap mass produced saddles, their hats, their boots, their chaps ... you get the idea. Then there were those who accepted you as you came to them, and were grateful to find someone from outside of their circles who was interested in learning, and preserving cowboy skills. They would teach you about what made a good saddle good, without calling yours crap.

I knew an old saddle maker who often got asked to fix people's store bought rigs. He did so without criticizing their purchase. He would put on the coffee while he worked on their saddle, and just visit, and subtly teach. As a result of his approach, he sold a lot of his handmade, beautiful, tough, and functional works of art to these people. One of my biggest regrets is that I didn't beg, borrow or steal the money to get him to build me one before the cancer got him. Anyway, I learned a lot from him. And I learned a lot from those who sniffed at my gear when I first started out.

We can all learn from the wisdom in this post. Fortunately, most of our members are the gracious, helpful kind.

 

[jethro224]

:applause:

 

[Capt. Fred]

Yup.

 

[tg]

"there seems to be reason enough for some questions to be repeated. IMHO"

I agree, some of them should just be buried as they just end up in several pages of arguements that get nowhere everytime they come up and are never really resolved, I was just looking at a hypothetical scenerio where a lot of searching was being done, sorry if that upset someone....not really sorry.

 

[ebiggs1]

I agree totally. you made to point very well.

 

[tg]

I am curious as to exactly how one hides behind a handle, most profiles give full names, it is quite common in the ML world to have a handle or nickname usually describing a stupid thing you were caught doing, the remark about hiding behind a handle seems like a cheap shot, there have been some comments made as to different levels of gun quality/workmanship but they were factual for the most parteven if not overly tactfull in presentation, though not whatsome gun owners like to hear particularly when it goes on and on, this is one of several threads that just gets folks wound up on both sides and accomplishes nothing neither side is going to see the light and change their perspective, this is the type of thread that fits the description of having run its course, there is no right or wrong just viewpoints..often not to gracefully put forth by either camp, it would be safe to say that there is a wide range of perspective about the merits or lack of when comparing factory vs custom ML's..

 

[ebiggs1]

I ws not the one that made the 'handle' remark, it was your custom guy. I also have never said either was better or worse, to the best of my memory. But I do think there were many rude remarks about people that use "factory" made guns.
You are correct this has run it's coarse and needs to end.

 

[DrLaw]

Claude said,

Fortunately, most of our members are the gracious, helpful kind.

And some, like me, are also so incredibly handsome that we dare not show a photo of ourselves for the jealousy that would result and the number of women who would never again be satisfied with what they have. :haha: :grin: :wink:

The Doc is out now and gearing up for his first muzzleloading hunt (been a city boy most of my life) :v

 

[montanatim]

Isn't it part of the fun to tinker with your rifle

 

[ebiggs1]

Thank you!

 

[Walks with fire]

After watching this post for a while I decided I wanted to comment on some things. One of which is the "You get what you pay for" statement. This is true and in my opinion for the price of a new TC rifle a person should have received a rifle that has the vent positioned correctly and in no way do I think that's too much to ask. I also believe that it will make a fine rifle for this man and provide years of quality service and TC will make it right for him once they evaluate his rifle. Tinkering is part of having any muzzleloading rifle and it's something I enjoy and learn from and TC is of sufficient quality for a blue collar working old man like me.

Owning a fine custom rifle such as those built by Mr. Brooks and others is something I would like to accomplish someday but the spare money is not available to me at this point and at my age may never happen; but that's ok too. The vast majority of members here offer their imput and advice on many topics and in no way attempt to force thier views on people. Many have helped me with certain issues and thier advice was of great value to me. I just try out their advice and see if it works for me and if it doesn't there is nothing lost.

Sometimes there are personal attacks on people because of their views on things and this is extremely counter productive. Every one of us has something to offer to make this forum the outstanding forum that it is. All of us need to remember why we come here and make an attempt to take some things with a grain of salt. People are different and most mean well and we will never all agree.

 

[Mike Brooks]

After watching this post for a while I decided I wanted to comment on some things. One of which is the "You get what you pay for" statement. This is true and in my opinion for the price of a new TC rifle a person should have received a rifle that has the vent positioned correctly and in no way do I think that's too much to ask. I also believe that it will make a fine rifle for this man and provide years of quality service and TC will make it right for him once they evaluate his rifle. Tinkering is part of having any muzzleloading rifle and it's something I enjoy and learn from and TC is of sufficient quality for a blue collar working old man like me.

Owning a fine custom rifle such as those built by Mr. Brooks and others is something I would like to accomplish someday but the spare money is not available to me at this point and at my age may never happen; but that's ok too. The vast majority of members here offer their imput and advice on many topics and in no way attempt to force thier views on people. Many have helped me with certain issues and thier advice was of great value to me. I just try out their advice and see if it works for me and if it doesn't there is nothing lost.

Sometimes there are personal attacks on people because of their views on things and this is extremely counter productive. Every one of us has something to offer to make this forum the outstanding forum that it is. All of us need to remember why we come here and make an attempt to take some things with a grain of salt. People are different and most mean well and we will never all agree.

All great points and well thought out. :thumbsup: I started out with a TC 29 years ago and quickly moved on to custom guns. nothing wrong with the TC, it just didn't have the quality of a hand built custom rifle. The vent position in the above photos of those three guns will all work and should be acceptable for a $600 gun. (I'm shocked TC is getting $600 for these! I paid $110 for mine. :wink: ) If you want everything in the right place and to work properly you're going to have to get away from machine built guns and go to hand built by somebody that knows how a gun is supposed to go together...you could even build one yourself and end up with a better product that a TC...but it's going to cost at least $600 for parts. I guess My old TC pushed me into the profession I have today as I knew there was something out there far better than a factory gun, so I started making them.
I must confess I'm a buyer of cheap guns myself. :redface: I've developed an addiction to reproduction percussion revolvers for Cowboy action shooting. I buy Italian colt knock offs. For the price of $200 to $350 I know they aren't going to work to my standards and I'll have to fix them to compete with them. I could buy 2nd generation colts, but they loose all of their value once you start shooting them.
So, anyway, my main point is don't expect a Cadillac for Yugo prices. The Yugo will work, but it will never be a Cadillac.