powder charge for musket?

[dandan noodles]

The service load for .58 and .577 muskets was 60 grains FFg or possibly Fg powder.
1 grain per caliber. Not 2 grains per caliber.
"1 grain per caliber minimum. and 2 grins per caliber maximum." was the "rule of thumb" back in the day.

Yes, a heavier charge may have been more accurate.
However, they were still using Napolianic Tacticts up to the end of the Civil War, and fired unaimed vollies at the enwmy troops.
They were not shooting at individuals, excluding officers. They did aim at the officers.
I don't know if the Revolutionary muskets (Brown Bess, etc) used 60 grains or 1 grain per caliber. (rounded to nearest caliber that ended with a "0" or a "5".)

Yeah, that's because powder manufacture techniques changed between the French Revolution and the American Civil War. Charcoal made in iron cylinders produced much more powerful powder than the traditional charcoal manufacture techniques the French used. Also, Minie rifles needed to be shot at lower velocities, since if the pressure was too high it could rip the rim off the base of the bullet.

Also Napoleonic tactics weren't just about unaimed volleys; most of the firefight was carried out by skirmishers, whose aimed fire was estimated to be twice as effective as firing by company. Getting the maximum accuracy out of a shot was crucial, so you have to use enough powder to get maximum velocities.

 

[dandan noodles]

My French infantryView attachment 22945 musket has. .690 bore. I’ve taken deer with it and shoot 75 grains 1 1/2F with a .662 ball. Loads easily without cleaning between shots.
Here is a 50 yard group from kneeling position with that load.

How wide are those rings, and how many shots can you get with .662 before needing to clean?

 

[okawbow]

How wide are those rings, and how many shots can you get with .662 before needing to clean?

The gold is about 4”. I usually wipe after 6 or 8 shots, or when I feel too much resistance. If I reload immediately, and it’s not too dry, I get more shots without wiping.

 

[SDSmlf]

My French infantryView attachment 22945 musket has. .690 bore. I’ve taken deer with it and shoot 75 grains 1 1/2F with a .662 ball. Loads easily without cleaning between shots.
Here is a 50 yard group from kneeling position with that load.

Is that a NASP 34”x34” archery target?

 

[okawbow]

Is that a NASP 34”x34” archery target?

I think it was a 60cm World Archery Target. About 24”.

 

[tenngun]

The faster you can drive a smooth bore ball the better accuracy you can expect .The 75 & 16 cals will only let you achive the velocity to a point where it is unwise and bruising but the smaller bore such as 40 cal will get you the velocity with out the negative recoiling .So for MLAIC internationals 'Miguelet' the 16 bores are your best bet & in Matchlock 'Tanagashima' the 40 cal or under is the best choice .'Miguelet' dosnt allow cleaning so that's a factor to consider . Some original powders where much better and the 1,500 fps was attained or exceeded . If no modern powders could match the original in tests made using an East India Company Lawrence's pattern Replica. 39" brl much like the what some call the third model or India Pat musket.
Rudyard

Those velocities were figured from a ballistics pendulum. The math is pretty straight forward base on Newton. However simple math often runs in to the hard wall of chaos. Lot of variables shooting a pendulum vs straight forward math. I wonder how correct those recorded velocities were

 

[Rudyard]

Well apparently Robbins was in India perhaps at the original test not sure can check. and the more recent tests are recorded in David Harding's 4 volume work on the ' Small arms of the East India Company ' .The Lawrences pattern replica being used by the author now resides in the RA Museum in Leeds .
Rudyard

 

[ugly old guy]

@dandan noodles
And yet the "1 grain per caliber minimum; 2 grains per caliber maximum" from when French powder was the "best", hung on after the charcoal was made in iron barrels.
(I was not aware they changed he manufacturing of charcoal)

Yes, skirmishes were much more common than a major battle. Then and now.

In a skirmish fight accuracy would be nice. (Volley fire was till used in skirmishes, by the way.)

As you are no doubt aware, each troop would need to find what shot best from his individual musket.
To say that would have used up a lot of powder and ball, and extended training time, is an understatement. If memory serves they had to show they could load and fire 6 shots a minute, before they were relieved from training. Actually hitting the target was not addressed, from what I've found. (Somewhat like for the "average" infantry grunt, today, no matter who's Army they are in. They are not expected to hit anyone; Just keep the enemy's head down.)
(Also remember a lot of troop on both side never fired "live " round during the war. They shot blanks. A lot who did fire live rounds always made sure to shoot well over the heads of the "enemy".
since he did not want to take a chance n hitting his brother, pop, uncle, cousin, or what ever.
It was not unusual for families
(even from the same household) t
o have men fighting on both sides. That way no matter which side won, they would have family that fought on that side, perhaps easing repercussions for fighting on the losing side.
(Yes, I Agree, It was/is strange logic; but it did exist, and was acted upon, by more than a few families.)
Also, then as now, some shooters are incapable of hitting the broadside of a barn - when inside said barn. Accuracy for them is of no matter or concern. Volley fire or aimed fire, if their ball or Minie hits anything (besides the ground), it is pure luck.​

I'm not sure how a heavy charge is going to rip the skirt off. He skirt was/is an integral part of the bullet. The skirt would[.i] expand into the grooves faster and more firmly with a heavier charge.
As for the pressures being higher with the Minie ... they probably were, just as they are if I shoot a 535 grain Maxi Hunter instead of a patched .530 round ball out of my Hawken.
It might be due to the differences in the steel used back then, and what Thompson Center used, but when shooting a PRB, the minimum powder charge is 50 grains FFg. Minimum. With a Maxi Hunter or Maxi Ball, regardless of weight, the minimum is 60 grains FFg. That in and by itself is going to raise the pressure.
The heaviest recommended load is 120 grains FFg, be it PRB, or a Maxi Ball or Maxi Hunter, regardless of weight.

families.)

 

[dandan noodles]

@ugly old guy I don't want to be mean, but your reading (and reading comprehension) is all over the map.

'1-2 grains per caliber' was never a rule before the Minie Ball. The rule of thumb then was 1/2 the weight of the projectile, or 1/3rd in the case of cylinder powder.

Even in major battles, aimed fire from troops in open order was the rule; fire by company or platoon was recognized to be ineffective compared to fire from light troops. Every footsoldier in a Napoleonic army was expected to be able to perform in this role.

ACW amies didn't train marksmanship because they were held to a low standard of military skill, as they were in a crisis. When other armies had the opportunity, they trained marksmanship. The British did it at the start of every campaign season in the Revolution, and the French did it whenever they had the spare powder.

No one in the American Civil War or Napoleonic Wars was shooting 6 rounds per minute from a musket. That rate of fire was only ever achieved by the Prussians when firing blank cartridges, and that was for individuals, not formations.

The pressure is lower for muskets with Minie balls, not higher, because the conical bullet, with its thin ridges and skirts, is just less resilient than a solid sphere. As such, these were typically shot at ~1000 fps instead of 1500-1800 fps like round ball muskets. People habitually undercharge their weapons because they don't know what velocities they should be getting.

 

[SDSmlf]

The

I'm not sure how a heavy charge is going to rip the skirt off. He skirt was/is an integral part of the bullet. The skirt would[.i] expand into the grooves faster and more firmly with a heavier charge.

Skirt damage is well known with moderate to heavy charges to anyone shooting Minies. Here is shirt damage as documented in the Lyman Black Powder Handbook. Should make it very easy to see and understand.

 

[tenngun]

@dandan noodles
And yet the "1 grain per caliber minimum; 2 grains per caliber maximum" from when French powder was the "best", hung on after the charcoal was made in iron barrels.
(I was not aware they changed he manufacturing of charcoal)

Yes, skirmishes were much more common than a major battle. Then and now.

In a skirmish fight accuracy would be nice. (Volley fire was till used in skirmishes, by the way.)

As you are no doubt aware, each troop would need to find what shot best from his individual musket.
To say that would have used up a lot of powder and ball, and extended training time, is an understatement. If memory serves they had to show they could load and fire 6 shots a minute, before they were relieved from training. Actually hitting the target was not addressed, from what I've found. (Somewhat like for the "average" infantry grunt, today, no matter who's Army they are in. They are not expected to hit anyone; Just keep the enemy's head down.)
(Also remember a lot of troop on both side never fired "live " round during the war. They shot blanks. A lot who did fire live rounds always made sure to shoot well over the heads of the "enemy".
since he did not want to take a chance n hitting his brother, pop, uncle, cousin, or what ever.
It was not unusual for families
(even from the same household) t
o have men fighting on both sides. That way no matter which side won, they would have family that fought on that side, perhaps easing repercussions for fighting on the losing side.
(Yes, I Agree, It was/is strange logic; but it did exist, and was acted upon, by more than a few families.)
Also, then as now, some shooters are incapable of hitting the broadside of a barn - when inside said barn. Accuracy for them is of no matter or concern. Volley fire or aimed fire, if their ball or Minie hits anything (besides the ground), it is pure luck.​

I'm not sure how a heavy charge is going to rip the skirt off. He skirt was/is an integral part of the bullet. The skirt would[.i] expand into the grooves faster and more firmly with a heavier charge.
As for the pressures being higher with the Minie ... they probably were, just as they are if I shoot a 535 grain Maxi Hunter instead of a patched .530 round ball out of my Hawken.
It might be due to the differences in the steel used back then, and what Thompson Center used, but when shooting a PRB, the minimum powder charge is 50 grains FFg. Minimum. With a Maxi Hunter or Maxi Ball, regardless of weight, the minimum is 60 grains FFg. That in and by itself is going to raise the pressure.
The heaviest recommended load is 120 grains FFg, be it PRB, or a Maxi Ball or Maxi Hunter, regardless of weight.

families.)

I recall in the English quote of putting men into the awkward squad until they could fire fifteen shots in three and three quarters min, one shot every fifteen seconds. I watched Ted Spring shoot twenty two shots in that time, with ball not blanks, and Spring ran out of ammo taking the last three shots from bystanders tossing him cartridges.

 

[Stantheman86]

1 shot every 15 seconds would be possible with Pritchett Cartridges , and a crack rifleman.

4 shots per minute with Burton cartridges is possible if you're very skilled but it out of reach of anyone who isn't highly trained.

I believe the Federal Army in the ACW had a "standard" of 3 aimed shots per minute but those standards go out the window in combat.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Powder charges for the ACW rifled muskets firing minie balls were determined by using the charge that properly expanded the skirt of the minie ball and maintained performance for the distances encountered on the battle field.

As for the F&I and AWI wars, the quality of the powder was very much a mixed level of performance. Most cartridges were made using a military grade powder, vastly less powerful than a sporting grade powder and in best Government purchase practice was supplied by the lowest bidder. One can only speculate on just how cleanly that grade of powder shot. Unit artificers would test the batch of powder and set the powder charge. Poor grade powder might have 150 to 160 grains of powder to push out a 0.690 ball in a paper wrapped cartridge. Imaging all the gas blow by that all that difference between ball diameter and a barrel in a Land Pattern Musket would generate. If the powder was good (still not sporting grade), a charge of 120 grains would be used for the cartridge with 10 gains expected to be used to fill the pan. These charges are documented by company records.

No general "rule of thumb" was used for the ball cartridges. It would seem that the charge was 2 grains per caliber minimum, but then ball diameter was determined by balls per pound than caliber in inches. The charge was determined by unit artificers based on the powder at hand.

A good rate of fire in a British regular infantry unit is about 3 rounds a minute. Trained units of Grenadiers or Light infantry could up the rate to 5 rounds a minute for a few minutes until the bore got too fouled, then it was likely time for the bayonet charge.

 

[tenngun]

1 shot every 15 seconds would be possible with Pritchett Cartridges , and a crack rifleman.

4 shots per minute with Burton cartridges is possible if you're very skilled but it out of reach of anyone who isn't highly trained.

I believe the Federal Army in the ACW had a "standard" of 3 aimed shots per minute but those standards go out the window in combat.

I have shot paper cartridges in my TFC loaded like a musket, I’m still in the awkward squad at about eighteen to twenty second per load. Never tried with a rifled musket.
The biggest problem I’ve had with any nipple hugger is putting on the cap in a hurry. Even them big top hats.
At a hundred yards I think a bess armed company would out shoot a rifle musket armed company. On the battlefields I’ve walked from TWBS much of the fighting was pretty close.
Of course during the rifled musket times artillery couldn’t unlimber two hundred yards from infantry and fire with impunity.

 

[Leadball loader]

I have shot paper cartridges in my TFC loaded like a musket, I’m still in the awkward squad at about eighteen to twenty second per load. Never tried with a rifled musket.
The biggest problem I’ve had with any nipple hugger is putting on the cap in a hurry. Even them big top hats.
At a hundred yards I think a bess armed company would out shoot a rifle musket armed company. On the battlefields I’ve walked from TWBS much of the fighting was pretty close.
Of course during the rifled musket times artillery couldn’t unlimber two hundred yards from infantry and fire with impunity.

What was the method employed to determine powder strength???

 

[tenngun]

They had powder testers. Small flintlock pistols with a spring on a ratchet. Depending on how far the spring would blow open when shot gave a mean idea of the powder strength. Or shoot a board and measure the penetration.
WTBS powder tended to be better then revolutionary powder. Government contracts tend to bred corruption, especially during a war when there was lots of money to be made supping the army and navy

 

[Stantheman86]

Here's me with probably the fastest loading combination of a rifled muzzleloading longarm you can find, the Enfield Musketoon with Pritchett cartridges. The last 3 or 4 shots I really tried and I had a hard time breaking the 20-25 second mark.

You're right, getting the cap on under pressure is tough. I have a period style round capper that might take a few seconds off.

Once you've actually tried it , the concept of loading and shooting in 15 seconds seems insanely fast.

 

[user 31257]

I read the thread title and thought it said, “powder charge for muskrat?”.
Leaving disappointed....

 

[Rudyard]

My two pen'orth on musket rates of fireing I have fired 12 rounds in three minets ten seconds for a show & tell to the Territorial's (Army). From a India pattern Flint lock Bess with B net fixed & dropped the rod once but returned it every time per drill & with ball . .This however isn't maintainable with troops and if they got off 2 a half a minet this was considered good . If rather than wildly filling the air with King Georges blue plums per Prussian thinking, Some degree of careful levelling /aiming was taught and British infantry fire was considered as deadly as any in Europe . Certainly the rounds expended versus kill ratio might run 400 to one without cannon or lance spoilage/sword & heart failure ect .It dos'nt sound too good. But I gather an estimated one million rounds of highly complex precision fired bullets where estimated in WW2 kills to cartridges ratio . So pretty good really .Well unless you stopped one .
Incidently the two Terriers who where in the butts as I shot my demo remarked how poor the shooting was but it was two hundred yards and I wasn't dwelling apon the aim any so fair comment.
Rudyard

 

[tenngun]

They would not have fired from foxholes from protected areas then. Even in an advance against a prepared defense would see a few minutes of fire, retreat, advance, or line collapse ended a fight long before the cartridge boxes were empty.