Powder gourds?

[Grumpa]

I am enjoying this (totally unexpected) thread. As a city boy, my experience with gourds has pretty much centered around the dinner table. I am curious how the gourd would compare with a horn for durability - e.g. if you slipped and fell on a gourd, would it shatter?

Judging from post #5, the gourd lends itself well to decoration and, presumably, is somewhat easier to inscribe.

I can see where a gourd powder carrier would lack a certain "cool" factor for most re-enactors. But then again, being Period Correct has a certain "cool" factor of its own.

As an aside, that gourd banjo is very attractive. I'm thinking it should be fret-less. Of course, it's all a matter of what the owner wanted.

Richard/Grumpa

 

[Brokennock]

I am curious how the gourd would compare with a horn for durability - e.g. if you slipped and fell on a gourd, would it shatter?

It would most likely be destroyed.

 

[toot]

Mostly the French reenactors use gourds as water containers.
Since we are not allowed to carry more than two ounces of blackpowder in our powderhorns and that only for priming. Prerolled paper cartridges are used for the main blank charge, even for rifles.
Larger gourds might be difficult to use for emergency priming.
I have never seen a gourd used as a powder container in my 46 years of reenacting, not to say it hasn't been done.
That said, I like the idea.

a powder gourd is not a reenactor thing. just because you haven't seen one doesn't make it not true. do your research and not pay attention to reinactors.

 

[Gun Tramp]

He nailed together a small box of rough lumber, and placed the immature gourd in it while the gourd was growing, so it grew as a square-sided gourd which would stand up on a flat surface.

That's one of the neatest things I've ever heard and will try it this season. Thank you Notchy Bob and LuVerne.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

a powder gourd is not a reenactor thing. just because you haven't seen one doesn't make it not true. do your research and not pay attention to reinactors.

This really is true. What a modern reenactor(s) choose to use may or may not have any bearing on what was actually used during the time. Reenactors are an important part of the hobby and can offer great insights, but should never be viewed as a true historical reference unless great scrutiny is used.

 

[JoJoLesh]

Because of this thread I picked up some bird house gourd seeds. If i get them to grow, I am willing to send out extra gourds for just the postage.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Because of this thread I picked up some bird house gourd seeds. If i get them to grow, I am willing to send out extra gourds for just the postage.

Awesome, JoJo! Put me on the “In Want of Gourd” list! Sounds like a fun project for a Southern Mountain gun.

 

[Eutycus]

Is this variety of gourd grown in the spring or fall? I don't have a whole lot of space in my garden but I'd like to give it a try.

 

[oreclan]

a powder gourd is not a reenactor thing. just because you haven't seen one doesn't make it not true. do your research and not pay attention to reinactors.

Well "toot' I am only giving an observation from my personal experience. Never seen an original in a museum; as for references the book "The Powder Flask Book" by Ray Riling which is quite an extensive study of blackpowder flasks, horns, and various other containers mentions the gourd on page 27. This is a quote from Stewart Edward White's book "Daniel Boone,Wilderness Scout", 'Powder came from the factories in canisters, but was invariably transferred to wooden kegs when it was to be stored for any length of time; or in gourds for lighter transportation.' On page 1 it states,' The first true powder flask undoubtedly appeared during the fifteenth century. The earliest were probably made from gourds or horns, hollowed out and fitted with stoppers.' There are hundreds of pictures and illustrations in this book, but none of gourds. They were used, but not practical, again my opinion.
Where is your research to back up your position, or have you none, but want only to disparage "reinactors"?

 

[oreclan]

Well "toot' I am only giving an observation from my personal experience. Never seen an original in a museum; as for references the book "The Powder Flask Book" by Ray Riling which is quite an extensive study of blackpowder flasks, horns, and various other containers mentions the gourd on page 27. This is a quote from Stewart Edward White's book "Daniel Boone,Wilderness Scout", 'Powder came from the factories in canisters, but was invariably transferred to wooden kegs when it was to be stored for any length of time; or in gourds for lighter transportation.' On page 1 it states,' The first true powder flask undoubtedly appeared during the fifteenth century. The earliest were probably made from gourds or horns, hollowed out and fitted with stoppers.' There are hundreds of pictures and illustrations in this book, but none of gourds. They were used, but not practical, again my opinion.
Where is your research to back up your position, or have you none, but want only to disparage "reinactors"?

Oh from "The Powder Flask Book", I found a photograph and description of one taken from the 1913 "Bannerman catalog"; on pages 402 and 406. It is described 'Flask Figure 1179 is a stoppered elongated small gourd with silver wire woven at the throat. This could have served many purposes although it is represented to have been a small powder flask.' This is hardly a frontier item.

 

[oreclan]

This really is true. What a modern reenactor(s) choose to use may or may not have any bearing on what was actually used during the time. Reenactors are an important part of the hobby and can offer great insights, but should never be viewed as a true historical reference unless great scrutiny is used.

As I stated that is ONLY MY OBSERVATION and "...I like the idea". Read my post about "The Powder Flask Book" by Riling.
Have you seen any references for gourds being used for powder? Have you seen any in museums?
There is no doubt that they were used. I am only saying that they are impractical, because they are bulky and fragile and as a result have not survived.
What is wrong with cow or bison horn?

 

[Eterry]

Growing up on the farm I know from experience it would be much much easier to grow a mess of gourds than wait for a bovine to grow a horn. I also know from experience said bovine does not surrender its horn without a struggle, whereas you simply pluck the gourd from its vine. I'm sure any pioneer would have Preferred a horn, but gourds were much more prevalent. And the bovine only gave 2 horns, a gourd plant could produce many more.

As a youth dad had friends who lived very "primitive". No running water, no electricity, etc. They had a large collection of gourds on the shady side of the house where they kept water to wash and drink. They all hung by a string and you choose one depending on your thirst and dipped it into the large barrel of water they hauled from town. I recall Dad getting some seeds from them for gourds, but don't recall if he planted them or if they came up. Such is the life of a farmer, its always a gamble.

 

[JoJoLesh]

Is this variety of gourd grown in the spring or fall? I don't have a whole lot of space in my garden but I'd like to give it a try.

Plant in spring, harvest in fall I think.

Was supposed to germinate them 4-6 weeks before last frost (which was last week), and 130 weeks to mature.

I am not going to invest much energy into these guys. Instead I am going to put them into a fairly wild part of the yard and allow them to outcompete the grasses. Squash and gourds do fairly well against grass, and we are germinating plenty of seeds of this so if we loose a couple we should still have lots.

 

[toot]

As I stated that is ONLY MY OBSERVATION and "...I like the idea". Read my post about "The Powder Flask Book" by Riling.
Have you seen any references for gourds being used for powder? Have you seen any in museums?
There is no doubt that they were used. I am only saying that they are impractical, because they are bulky and fragile and as a result have not survived.
What is wrong with cow or bison horn?

nothing at all. sorry if I ruffled your feathers. the gourd I saw was in the 70's at the BENNENGTON,VT MEMERIONAL MUSEAUM. I have one that came from a NEW ENGLAND BARN with a hunting leather pouch and had BUCK SHOT in it. JMHO.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I still haven't made it over to my brother's place to photograph our two old powder gourds, but I did go through some of my references and found a couple of pictures of interest. Sorry about the lousy quality of the images... A photographer I am not!

The first is from John Rice Irwin's Guns and Gunmaking Tools of Southern Appalachia (page 90):

Mr. Irwin did not give us any dimensions, but if we figure the average corncob (as used for a stopper in the middle gourd) is a little over an inch in diameter, we can probably get a fairly close estimate. The gourd on the left seems to have a roll of corn shucks crammed in the opening. The one in the lower right is a near duplicate (based on my recollection) of my great grandfather's powder gourd, which was plugged either with a cork or a piece of tupelo root. Mr. Irwin appears to assume that powder was stored in the gourds, and then transferred to a horn to carry in the field. However, my dad (from southeast Alabama) told me the gourd was used to carry the powder while hunting. I believe he said the gourd was carried in a canvas sack, which I think had a shoulder-strap, like a haversack.

The next picture is of a page from an article entitled, "Collection Corner - Southern Rifle Accessories," from the Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly, Vol. 26, No. 4:

This is a tiny little gourd, if the dimensions in the caption are correct, only 1-5/16" in diameter. It was reportedly used as a container for percussion caps. However, I believe the article does mention the use of gourds as powder containers.

I think a lot of us like to select the best of the objects from the past and present them as typical... Rifles with decorative carving and inlays, horns with multiple ornamental bands or scrimshawed "folk art," and gusseted bags with lots of rings and buckles and perfect stitching. Those things certainly existed, and I admire the skill of today's artisans who can duplicate that sort of thing. However, I think these homely little gourd flasks might tend to get passed over by collectors, some of whom might not even realize what they are. I can't prove it, but I'll bet there were a lot more of them "out there" and in use, back in the day, than a lot of us realize. These simple containers, like "poor boy" mountain rifles, have a place in our shooting community today, particularly for those among us who have chosen a "southern theme" for their gear.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[LuVerne Schumann]

History is extremely fractal in nature. What is true for one occasion might not be true for another. This illustrates that, imo.

A Longhunter wouldn't put his powder in a gourd and carry it on his body, for instance. The horn is probably more durable and handy.

But at home, he might have a stash of powder in a gourd, because it was a cheap and efficient way to store it, so it could easily be toted to one of the walls of the station by a woman or child in order to replenish during an Indian attack.

A circa 1820 Tennessee farmer wouldn't see any advantage to a horn for holding powder, if he were going out to pot shoot.

 

[toot]

thank you, thank you! the ones showed are the same type that I stated that I saw in the VT. museum so long ago! as I said I have a small gourd that came with a very old shoulder leather hunting bag and has buckshot in it and it is still very hard and no damage at all to it over the years of the lead rolling back & 4th. and it too has a corncob stopper in it. it is from the 1800's. as stated when they are dried they are very hard and will even hold water with out weeping or ever getting soft. there is a reason that the old timers used them, waste not want not!!

 

[JoJoLesh]

...... as stated when they are dried they are very hard and will even hold water with out weeping or ever getting soft. there is a reason that the old timers used them, waste not want not!!

Actually, gourdes were first cultivated for use as containers for liquid. It is thought that they were one of he first things early man activity cultivated.

 

[George]

Madison Grant, Powder Horns and Their Architecture, a gourd flask:

Spence

 

[Notchy Bob]

Madison Grant, Powder Horns and Their Architecture, a gourd flask:

View attachment 30905

Spence

Wow, somebody put a flask head on a gourd! I've never heard of that!

I don't own any of Madison Grant's books, although I know they have been in publication for a long time. They must be good resources.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob