Powder Horn

[DGeraths]

That is an interesting study and thank you for the link :hatsoff:, but IMHO it fails to really take into account an important aspect. It is not the charge, nor the dissipation of the charge with an arc (as demonstrated in the study) that can ignite the powder. It is the actual spark that can be generated by the charge that can ignite the powder.

I have a couple of friends who work professionally as pyrotechnicians (one of which has about 30 years experience working with all types of explosives). They have done explosive work for everything from films, to firework shows, to the pot charges at our WWII living history battles.

We have discussed this issue before. They made it quite clear that it is common knowledge among professional fireworks designers and manufactures that all clothing going into the work area has to pass pretty serious inspection to ensure that it is not able to cause a static charge. Clothing has to be of a certain type of material, shoes have to be soft rubber soled, hair has to be short or at least tied close to the head.

One of the more recent large scale explosions at a fireworks plant in China was found to be caused by a static spark.

The study you have linked to is definitely an interesting one, but I think there are some issues regarding static electricity that were not really dealt with.

Again, this is just my opinion. eace:

 

[roundball]

Again, this is just my opinion

I completely understand and respect your right to that opinion.

I just come from the school that knows there are a lot of old, well established, and well intended "old sayings" like 1:48" twist barrels won't shoot round balls accurately and of course that's completely false...and old wive's tales are hard to kill.

I merely said if I was investigating that accident, I'd still be looking for the root cause...and still would.

 

[DGeraths]

I just come from the school that knows there are a lot of old, well established, and well intended "old sayings" like 1:48" twist barrels won't shoot round balls accurately and of course that's completely false...and old wive's tales are hard to kill.

I must ask though. Do you really think that all of the still enforced and accepted rules regarding static generating clothing, items... etc, at large scale explosive and firework production plants are all the result of a "wive's tale"? I find that a little hard to believe. :hmm:

The study used as an example is just one, and frankly not a very thorough one at that. I think that there has to be some viability to the belief that it can in fact be the cause of detonation.

One just has to Google information on static electricity and explosives to see that it is pretty well known and accepted that explosions related to static charge can in fact happen.

Perhaps this is a job for MythBusters!

Dana

 

[roundball]

I just come from the school that knows there are a lot of old, well established, and well intended "old sayings" like 1:48" twist barrels won't shoot round balls accurately and of course that's completely false...and old wive's tales are hard to kill.

I must ask though. Do you really think that all of the still enforced and accepted rules regarding static generating clothing, items... etc, at large scale explosive and firework production plants are all the result of a "wive's tale"? I find that a little hard to believe. :hmm:

The study used as an example is just one, and frankly not a very thorough one at that. I think that there has to be some viability to the belief that it can in fact be the cause of detonation.

One just has to Google information on static electricity and explosives to see that it is pretty well known and accepted that explosions related to static charge can in fact happen.

Perhaps this is a job for MythBusters!

Dana

Gosh, I've really tried to make it clear that I simply offered another viewpoint, another opinion...I really don't want to go off into tangents of speculation about philosophical things neither of us can possibly know the answers too.

Again, let me say that I accept the fact that you have an opinion that the powder horn must have blown up because the hunters wool coat rubbed against a nail head.

I simply have a different view.

Thanks

 

[CG6018]

Roundball, sometimes you just have to say, "I never repeat myself, I never repeat myself". Or, simply, "$#(T Happens".

 

[DGeraths]

Gosh, I've really tried to make it clear that I simply offered another viewpoint, another opinion...I really don't want to go off into tangents of speculation about philosophical things neither of us can possibly know the answers too.

No big deal, just thought it was an interesting subject for discussion, that's all. :hatsoff:

 

[hornbuilder]

i'm with you guys ,, roundball and griz , never heard of static ignite black powder. could the guy possibly have been smoking ? now that will set off blk powder in a hurry ?
:results:

 

[DGeraths]

As far as I know, the gentlemen in question did not smoke. He also had not even opened the horn or done anything with it for probably more than a couple of hours. He was slightly further up the trail from me when it went off...

and boy could you hear it... bigtime!

As I said, it is not the discharge of static electricity that can set off the powder, at least according to the pyrotechnicians, it is the spark that can result from that arc that will set off explosives.

Everything in an explosives plant must be designed to be grounded and everyone working in such a place has clothing and shoe requirements designed to minimize static charge. That seems like a lot of precaution for something that could be an old wive's tale. Again, just my opinion. eace:

Whether or not static charge was to blame in the case of the horn explosion, who knows... What I do know is that there is scant little else that could explain the detonation.

Dana

 

[DGeraths]

For those interested, here a few links I found on the subject of static discharge in relation to explosions. It is interesting reading.

http://www.safetyline.wa.gov.au/pagebin/injrsign0126.htm

http://www.accidentreconstruction.com/newsletter/jul02/gaspump.asp

http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2004/041013a.htm

http://www.vcds.forces.gc.ca/dsafeg/pubs/manuals/GSPrecautions/42ch07_e.asp


:m2c:

 

[AZ-Robert]

Here's a link that has a wide variety of powder horns, plain and reasonably priced to fancy and more expensive. I bought plain common man's horn for $36 and was very impressed with the quality and workmanship. Far beter than anything I could do myself.
:imo: :results:
http://www.waynezurl.com/

Wow... those are pretty nice horns for what I think are pretty reasonable prices.

Plain simple horns can be had for $20 from Track or the Possibles Shop (see the links page). You can then carve away on it and turn it into something special. I've been amazed at how easy this material is to work with.

But if you don't want to spend the time enhancing one, or making one from scratch, I'd say spend the extra $15 and get one off that site. Nicest work I've ever seen at those prices.

A small tangent... (really, really small :: )... bought a bison horn in the rough for $12, spent about two hours cleaning it up and getting it smoothed out. Whittled a butt plug for it in an afternoon. If I had stopped there, that baby would be worth $125 retail based on what I'm seeing advertised.

Got some more carving to do before I'm finished with it, though.

 

[AZ-Robert]

Plain simple horns can be had for $20 from Track or the Possibles Shop (see the links page).

Or for even less here:

http://www.thegunworks.com/custprodgun.cfm?ProductID=2&do=detail&Cat2Option=yes

http://www.thegunworks.com/custprodgun.cfm?ProductID=3&do=detail&Cat2Option=yes

 

[Catof9tails]

Back to the original question, I would suggest you surf several sites that offer ready to use powder horns. As for myself, I agree with Blackhand. If ya want to try your hand at making your own powder horn, buy a few polished blank horns and try your handy work on it. I made my first one from scratch and turned out to be my favorite. I figure I've made about seven powder horns to date and have four more under construction. I'm not an expert at powder horns, but I've got folks asking me to build them and they don't even have a blackpowder rifle. If you decide to build your own, let your imagination be your guide and just have fun building. Heck, I'm inlaying shark teeth, buffalo nickles, and bird point arrow heads; just to mention a few.

Some old fart (just joking) in this forum gave me this web address for making powder horns and it helped me big time:
http://www.nmroyalrangers.org/FCF/making_a_powder_horn.htm

I got to say, IMHO nothing wrong with buying one ready to use, either hand made or store bought. Whatever your decision, have fun making smoke.

Cat9

PS: I'm know there are other places to order polished powder horns, but I've found "Thunder Ridge Muzzle Loading" to have better quality horns.......just my opinion.

 

[gordy]

roundball!I'll have to agree with You.There have been several extensive tests to determine the possibility of static electricity igniteing Black[url] Powder.In[/url] those that I've read the reports on,not one instance of ignition took place.I too would like to know the "rest of the story".I'm not saying it's impossible ,but I feel it very unlikely thatwool rubbing on a piece of metal the size of a brad head could generate that much charge.

 

[Griz]

I know we are way off subject, however. I was thinking about this lastnight (gotta get a life) I wonder what brand of powder he was useing. Without mentioning brands, there are some that have a coating on the BP that will make them less apt to blow in certain situations and there are some brands that do not coat the BP. I do not know if that may have had anything to do with this situation or not, just one of my late night thinkin' process's :m2c: :results:

 

[gordy]

By the way!Thats a really nice job You did on Your horn.I would suggert that it's best to build One's own horn.Even if it's quite plain.As You learn,it can always be decorated later on.I have built several horns with brass on them.If You check,this is authenic ,even back in the 1700s and before.As roundball said the reason for the mishap with the horn may well have been from another cause.Every one has their own view point,and I think that is a good thing.helps to bring more information to the Forum.What was the make and size of the powder he was carrying?and was the horn packed full?.

 

[FearNot]

In all of the "tests" I've read about they were testing solid, poured out of the can powder. But no one that I've read about has addressed the issue of dust. Were I to enter an opinion about the above exploding horn, I'd want to consider the possibility that the nail in question extended into the horn ABOVE the level of powder. When the static passed through the nail to the powder it may have ignited powder dust suspended in the horn. Yes, yes. I know... coated powder doesn't produce dust (yeah... right )

Just my two cents worth.

 

[gordy]

I've thought along those lines myself.We do know that the right mixture of dust and air can create a very explosive situation,wittness grain elevator fires and explosions over the years.But!it's not the same as would be found inside of a sealed horn.It would also seem that there would have to be an object for the static spark to jump to ,in the horn.Speculation,Speculation,I think it's good to address issues such as this. ff:I would have to agree it's best to avoid useing iron nails to hold Your cap in,Wood seemed to be quite common and looks better.

 

[DGeraths]

I called a college buddy of mine last night and discussed this with him. He is an electrical engineer and has some experience dealing with appropriate cautions regarding static charge.

He brought up a very interesting point. He asked what type of nail was used in the horn and I told him that it was a hand forged iron nail. The gentlemen who had owned the horn in question had one of the local smiths pound out a few nails for him and he had used these in the construction of the horn.

My friend mentioned that forged metal is covered in and filled with carbon and unlike modern manufactured metals, will likely spark when a static charge goes through it. This is because of the small partials of carbon and related impurities on the surface and within the metal that gives the charge something to ignite, producing a spark. He said that this is the reason why forged iron works so well for fire strikers, because the impurities in the iron make it easy to spark when friction is applied, like striking it with flint.

He also told me that regardless of what was shown in that study, static electricity is in fact a real danger around explosives and he has spent many years dealing with both it's prevention and it's aftermath.

I do realize that this is in fact off topic, but I think it is an extremely important topic and safety regarding the carrying, using and handling of black powder should always be a welcome subject of discussion.

 

[oomcurt]

This thread has sort of touched on something I have wondered about. Now this is for the fur era time...which is correct..the staple in the plug or a turned finial? Also, seeing as how there are/were a great number of horns with the staple...some made out of wrought iron and others out of modern steel...kinda odd if static was the cause of the event...I would think that if this would have happened a sufficient number of times that either much would have been written about it or the practice would have ceased. Personally, I don't buy into the static thing. Now I know the world is getting more and more full of safety freaks..but a little thought goes a long way. I highly doubt any fur trapper, F&I person, as well as others back then would have sat around a campfire without thier horn..just like they wouldn't have left thier rifle leaning against a tree 10 or more feet away from them. Same with the thing where someone gets a little worried if a guy is shooting a flintlock and the touch hole is one the side where the other guy has his horn hanging.

 

[Zonie]

Dispatch 510: If you do decide to build your own horn, be sure to get one which is already cleaned. They are available from Dixie Gunworks and Track of the Wolf to name a few.

I've heard of people getting "raw" horns from meat packers. Most of them regretted the day the thing arrived because you have to "cook" them to get the core out of them and the smell they give off will get the whole neighborhood up in arms. ::