Powder-wad? then patched ball???

[Millsman]

John Atkinson's 1998 book "The British Dueling Pistol" on page 29 states the following: "Once the powder was in the chamber and the wad in place,the ball..." it goes on to describe that a patched ball was then loaded. My question is that after looking at a number of cased original pistol sets some have wad cutters but until reading this description I always presumed that it was just powder-patch/ball not powder-wad-patch/ball.Your thoughts on either the use of a wad between the powder and patched ball or why this step/process has been discontinued.

 

[crockett]

You have to experiemnt with what works best in your particular pistol. You never use a patched ball in a revolver but in a single shot pistol the patched ball is normal. The wad theoretically buffers the back of the PB and provides better accuracy. You can use powder/ patched ball, or powder/wad/patched ball.

 

[Millsman]

Thanks for the reply. I was referring to a single shot smoothbore. Does anyone know what was used for wads in the late 1700 early 1800s? I know paperboard was available in England in the early 1800s but prior to?? Even today Dixie sells wad punches and precut wads but does not (or I couldn't find) sheets? of wad material you would use a punch on.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Use drink coasters like the ones used in bars. You can sometimes find the raw stock at office supply stores, or they can order it for you. Then you can make all the wads you need or want, and make them as thick as you want.

You can buy pre-lubed wonderwads from Ox-Yoke, or you can use Walter's Fibre Wads, too. The purpose is to provide more mass in front of the powder to increase chamber pressure and get more uniform powder burning. This in turn increases the likelihood that each round fired will strike the same POI on the target. Consdering the relatively short barrel of single shot pistols, anything you can do to inprove the complete burning of the powder in the gun before the ball leaves the barrel will aid accuracy. Some people put another wad on top of the PRB to give further mass, and to hold the ball in place, in the event that the patch and ball combination is smaller in diambeter than the bore.

 

[mec]

Wasp nests were popular for wadding as was tow- towsack.
Pedersoli puts out a comprehensive video with each of their guns. The part about pistol shooting is intersesting. they load powder then an over-powder wad and then the patched ball. I'm not sure how widespread the practice is but most shooters omit the wad.

It is difficult to find anybody who really knows about standard loading technique for pistols in the historic period. It is pretty evident that for pistols with rifling,undersized ball and patch were the way to go from the late 18 century onward. Prior to that, in Europe there was some feeling that you had to use an oversized ball and pound it down the bore to get any sort of accuracy. they did not believe the patch would catch the rifling and spin a slightly under bore sized ball.
Even in the matchlockand wheellock arms, there are mentions of using patches made of deer skin.
The smooth bore martial pistols -both flint and percussion were smooth bore and often loaded with envelop cartridges containing powder and ball. the proceedure was to cut or bite the linen or paper wrapper, dump the powder in and then stuff the ball down the bore using the wrapper to hold it against the powder.
weve compared 54 and over caliber flint and percussions loaded both ways- patched ball or cartridge and/or wadding over the ball and found no particular difference in measured velocity or our ability to hit things with the un-sighted pistols.

 

[Millsman]

Again thanks for any and all input. I have a wad punch now and I would appreciate the opportunity to make my own wads (instead of buying them) for the pistol,it is smoothbore approximatly .50 caliber (mold and punch marked 40 bore in the English manner) can someone recommed a good material,appropriate thickness and probably lube?
Thanks in advance

 

[mec]

check[url] thehighroad.com[/url] when it comes back up again. One of the stickies on the blackpowder subforum by Gatofeo is titled something like "Found! A source for felt wads."

 

[Old Charlie]

You can get your felt at[url] http://www.durofelt.com[/url] Make sure you order the 100% wool felt.
Old Charlie

 

[Millsman]

Mec and Old Charlie, Thanks ordered felt!!!!

 

[Tight_Wad]

I've experimented with a felt wad (Duro-Felt) between powder and patched ball as against just powder and patched ball in my Pedersoli LePage .44. I found no improvement in accuracy and since the patch wasn't burning through anyway I dropped using the felt wad as there was no discernable advantage in using it. However, I only use 12 to 15g of Swiss #2 and it may be the case that with a substantially heavier charge as might be used in a smoothbore flinter pistol or a large calibre rifle, the wad could help protect the patch.

I do use the excellent Duro-Felt for home-made wads in the revolver and they certainly help keep barrel fouling to the minimum IMO.

Tight Wad :winking:

 

[mec]

good post. Your load levels sound a lot like those the serious match shooters use (as opposed to the ones I use which tend to be a bit heavier)

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't notice much improvement with a wad underneath as my patches hold up and the target results are generally on a par with what I get with the best modern target revolvers.

 

[Old Charlie]

In a cap and ball ,I hope that wad will help prevent a chain fire.
Old Charlie

 

[Old Charlie]

In a cap and ball ,I hope that wad will help prevent a chain fire.
Old Charlie

 

[Rebel]

I really don't think there is much chance of a Chainfire from flame getting to the powder from the front of the cylinder. If the ball is a good tight fit like it should be, (shave a ring of lead), then how is flame going to get by it? I think that chainfires start at the rear of the cylinder when a cap or caps come off the nipples during firing. JMO

 

[Tight_Wad]

I followed a link from here once on the subject of revolver chain fires. A guy from europe conducted a series of tests setting off charges of powder angled into the loaded chambers of a percussion revolver cylinder. Couldn't induce a loaded chamber to go off no-how. I think the conclusion was that a chain fire was more likely caused by a loose cap falling off and an the flame from an adjoining cap setting it off during discharge. Makes sense to me - if you're using a properly fitting tight ball I can't imagine how a flame could get past it to ignite the powder behind. Take more care over cap selection and give 'em a pinch to ensure they stay on if necessary. Better still, buy properly fitting caps to start with. This will probably involve keeping several makes/sizes of cap in stock if you use several different guns, but it's worth the trouble IMO.

Tight Wad :thumbsup:

 

[crockett]

To review that long conversation on chain firings, the group pretty much concluded the following:

1. There are probably several causes.
2. Most(maybe all) chain firings reported within the group were at the start of the day, the first cylinder of rounds.
a. The only variable on this would be nipples still containing oil/grease. This may have cause the caps to slip. Those who dry fired a cap on each nipple at the start of the day( to burn off oil/greae) didn't have any chain fires- provided the caps properly fit the nipples.
3. Grease over the ball, at the end of the chamber, often melted or burned out within one or two shots, the remaining chambers had no grease.
4. One member loaded a cylinder without caps and quickly passed a torch over the caps- simulating flash from a cap. The uncapped chambers ignited.
5. Conclusions:
Snap a cap on the nipples( no powder charge) at the start of the day to burn off any oil/grease.
Don't squeeze on caps- they should properly fit.
Make sure the balls are tight in the chamber.
Greased wads between the powder and ball MAY be better than using grease at the front end of the chamber.

 

[Tight_Wad]

Interesting that you say most chain fires happen at the start of a shoot. I've always found if a cap's going to fall off it's generally from a clean unfouled nipple, ie when 'capping off'. After a few shots even a loose-ish cap can hold on once the fouling & crud build up.

This would seem to back up the theory that chain fires are most likely to originate from loose caps falling off.

Tight Wad :applause:

 

[wwfeatherston]

This is my experience too- caps only seem to fall off on the first cylinder.

I had been cleaning the nipples with a pipe cleaner, rather than capping off (due to the high cost of caps here- $12/100!)

False economy, though!