Primitive seasons being revisited

[roundball]

Encouraging news...I've seen a couple of other posts now where legislation is being introduced (New York and up in Canada) aimed at returning primitive muzzleloader seasons to what they were originally set up for in the first place...barring the use of modern inlines, scopes, etc...maybe there's hope after all.

 

[Tahquamenon]

Roundball, so I guess you are in favor of doing away with inlines during ML seasons now that you have your inlines sold?
:winking:

Well, with Hillary at the helm in NY I suppose anything is possible.

It will be interesting to see just how they attempt to define a "primitive muzzleloader" versus an inline?

I would think that the ignition type would be the only way of functionally differentiating the two. Like as in Flintlock only ,which I am in favor of Flint only seasons.
Watch though, if they do go to a flint only season, all of the cap only shooters will be crying like a newborn.

Iron sights only will not eliminate inlines. Sidelock or percussion only won't likely fly either.

Inlines with a slower twist will shoot percussion caps, any powder, any projectiles and just saying "no inlines" will likely result in litigation that will be tough to legally pass unless they can come up with a way of re-definition of an inline to say that it's not a muzzleloader. Which is ridiculous.

:imo:

 

[roundball]

"...aimed at returning primitive muzzleloader seasons to what they were originally set up for in the first place..." I think makes the point very clear...if you're trying to provoke a fight, you're wasting your time trying to do it with me...take it up with the legislators in New York state and Canada.

 

[Tahquamenon]

Roundball.

I'm not trying to pick a fight.

Just offering a viewpoint in regards to your post.

:relax:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Well, with Hillary at the helm in NY I suppose anything is possible.

Don't blame me!! We was up in NY, mindin our own business and BAM! Some Arkansas woman we never saw before (except when she almost got arrested for Whitewater and the White House travel debacle that everyone conveniently forgot) taggin a hound-dog in Washington is now one of our senators. How did that happen, anyway? Only job experience is that 50% of the voters felt sorry for her, and her predecessor was a hoodlum in the pocket of the guys The Sopranos is based on.

I say we make it a law that you have to have spent more than seven days in a state before you can be a senator for that state.

Can I be senator of Florida next winter?

If NY goes flintlock only, Knight will soon come up with an enclosed lock that has a piece of flint machined into a cylinder to transfer the blow between the spring driven hammer and the 209 primer. Then they'll call it a Flinter 3000.

Bending the rules is big business.

 

[Hoyt]

I wish Fl. had a primitive weapons only WMA like Kentucky has. I've heard This Place has very little pressure during the hunting seasons and has a good amount of turkey for spring gobbler hunters.

 

[freetrapper20]

Thats encouraging news to me!! Keep us posted on what happens. It will be interesting for sure.

 

[jdixon]

A couple of years ago the Kentucky F/W people banned in-lines and all optic sights from an 8000 acre management area in the Daniel Boone NF in the eastern part of the state. Hunting pressure in the area has dropped to almost nothing. I go out there and often have the place to myself. When they allowed the in-line boys in there, the place was overrun and over hunted. Now it is my first choice for whitetail and turkey. Best damn decision our local Fish & Wildlife jokers ever made.

 

[wtilenw]

Muzzleloading Rifle or Musket
In any hunt, including general any-weapon seasons
and short-range hunts, it is unlawful to pursue or kill big
game animals:

 

[Zonie]

JR: I'm not picking on you, but I think you made a statement which serves to best exemplify what I feel a lot of the In-Line debate is all about when you said:
"...I go out there and often have the place to myself. When they allowed the in-line boys in there, the place was overrun and over hunted. Now it is my first choice for whitetail and turkey.

I think that cuts thru the Bovine Scatt and gets right to the heart of the matter.

Personally, I have said all along that the In-lines have no real advantage over the Flintlock or the Caplock if they are limited to Iron Sights Only.

IMO, a true hunter, (and I do know a lot of people who are "true hunters"), will not take a shot without being sure of a good solid hit in the vital area of the game animal.
Most of the true hunters I know would also not take shots much over 100 yards if they were limited to iron sights because they understand the sights and their own limitations.

Now, if at issue is truly a desire to get back to primitive hunting, then Matchlocks are the only truly primitive weapon to use.

If the issue is it should be for Round Balls only, why?
Within Iron Sight range, the round ball and a sabot slug are equally lethal.

A lot of people on this forum will be the first to say the Flintlock is as accurate (and as sure fire?) as a Precussion gun, so banning Precussion guns does not make "the chase" any more challenging and I would say 175 years of use qualifies a Caplock as being traditional.

If Precussion guns are allowed, the iron sight only In-Line should qualify because it is, after all, just a precussion gun with a different style of hammer and a not very different location for the cap.
Yes, it is not "traditional", but if traditional is the point of the arguement, then we should be sure the new laws mandate that the only cloths you can wear must be of pre 1860? style.

I wonder if using the shape of the In-lines gunstock or the type of cap it uses is the real issue here, or is it simply a desire to limit the number of people who will be hunting a given area at a given time?
::

 

If Precussion guns are allowed, the iron sight only In-Line should qualify because it is, after all, just a precussion gun with a different style of hammer and a not very different location for the cap.
Yes, it is not "traditional", but if traditional is the point of the arguement, then we should be sure the new laws mandate that the only cloths you can wear must be of pre 1860? style.

I wonder if using the shape of the In-lines gunstock or the type of cap it uses is the real issue here, or is it simply a desire to limit the number of people who will be hunting a given area at a given time?
::

I'm confused why traditional cloths would be mandated in a "traditional muzzleloader only" hunt, and wouldn't this also mandate thet DNR Officers be educated in "pre-1860 cloths", or to become State employeed "thread counters"??????

YMHS
rollingb

 

[scott k]

PA has it set up to make all happy. There is a early season for anything and a late season for Flint locks. It use to say some where a prb was the only thing permited. here is pa's muzzleloading code.
(b) Flintlock muzzleloading season. Firearms lawful for use are original muzzleloading single-barrel long guns manufactured prior to 1800, or a similar reproduction of an original muzzleloading single-barrel long gun which:

(1) Is .44 caliber or larger and has open sights.

(2) Propels single-projectile ammunition.

(c) Ignition. Flintlock mechanisms shall consist of a hammer containing a naturally occurring stone which is spring propelled onto an iron or steel frizzen which, in turn, creates sparks to ignite a priming powder.

(d) Prohibitions. While hunting deer during the flintlock muzzleloading season it is unlawful to:

(1) Use manmade materials attached to the hammer or frizzen to create sparks.

(2) Use telescope, aperture or peep sights.

(3) Use or possess single projectile ammunition other than specified in subsection (b)(2) and in section 2322(a)(4) of the act (relating to prohibited devices and methods).

(4) Unless otherwise provided in this chapter, hunt, take or attempt to take deer through the use of a device not specifically described in subsection (b) or (c).


(e) Muzzleloading season. Firearms lawful for use are muzzleloading single-barrel long guns which:

(1) Are .44 caliber or larger.

(2) Propel single projectile ammunition.

(f) Prohibitions. While hunting deer during muzzleloading season it is unlawful to:

(1) Use or possess single projectile ammunition other than specified in subsection (e)(2) and in section 2322(a)(4) of the act.

(2) Hunt, take or attempt to take deer through the use of a device not specifically described in subsection (e).



Lehigh...

 

Inlines with a slower twist will shoot percussion caps, any powder, any projectiles and just saying "no inlines" will likely result in litigation that will be tough to legally pass unless they can come up with a way of re-definition of an inline to say that it's not a muzzleloader. Which is ridiculous.

:imo:

I personaly, would have no "problem" hunt'n the same muzzleloader season, with inlines thet have an "exposed percussion cap ignition system", along with a "roundball or lead conical only" restriction, and with no scopes allowed as an added bonus!!

..... but, I wonder if any of today's dedicated modern inline shooters would even "bother" with such a muzzleloader hunt under those restrictions, simply 'cause ther would no longer be any preceived "advantage" over more "traditional muzzleloaders"!!

YMHS
rollingb

 

[Tahquamenon]

:imo: [/quote]

..... but, I wonder if any of today's dedicated modern inline shooters would even "bother" with such a muzzleloader hunt under those restrictions, simply 'cause there would no longer be any perceived "advantage" over more "traditional muzzleloaders"!!
[/quote]

Hi Rollingb,

Well, I hunt with modern rifles both exposed and enclosed ignition with and without optics as well as sidelock percussion traditionally styled rifles. But I started in muzzleloading long before the modern styles, designs and accessories.

Perceived advantage is really more marketing than reality. The newest of modern designs are much more weather resistant, but beyond that there really is not much difference unless you start adding in optics. The major differences are really just aesthetics.

I think folks would hunt with whatever was legal and within their preferences. Certainly anything that was more restrictive in nature will turn some folks away as well as make more folks less effective to a point.

Also, I'm sure folks would find disappointment to a degree if they have a rifle than ends up being dis-allowed during a particular season. I know I would if I did not already have an option that would be legal.

Regarding the phrase that was mentioned earlier that "when the inlines were allowed into the traditional seasons, there were no deer in the woods and everything is over hunted, but now that they are not allowed, I have the place to myself". I can certainly appreciate this.

But I think if restrictive traditional seasons are going to be the norm, then traditional rifles should be banned from regular firearm seasons. In Michigan, you can use any type of ML during any firearm season.

If Michigan were to restrict the now present single ML season to traditional rifles only, I would would also vote for restriction of traditional rifles banning them from the regular firearm season.

:m2c: :imo:

 

[jim gray]

If Michigan were to restrict the now present single ML season to traditional rifles only, I would would also vote for restriction of traditional rifles banning them from the regular firearm season.

Wouldn't you also have to support the banning of bows from the regular firearms season?

I like the PA seasons. One thing that was not mentioned in the earlier post regarding the PA early ML season is that it is limited to antlerless deer only. Having a traditional flintlock only season in PA and allowing the use of traditional muzzleloaders in the regular season is not a problem in any way.

 

[Huntinfool]

Hey Fellows Scopes are one thing closed ignitions are another. And then the 209 shotshell primer is a whole nuther thing!

Most if not all the new inlines have gone to the 209. I've got a friend who has a Rem. model 700 when he bought it the ignition was percussion cap. But Rem. came out with an adapter to make it 209 shotshell compatible.

And to say that traditional weapons should be made illegal during the regular firearms season is just plain asinine and shows you don't have a good grip on how seasons are set up!

When the muzzleloading seasons were set up inlines were not thought of. And most if not all states allow as many call them challenged weapons such as bows and traditional ML to replace any modern weapon.

Lets face it nothing is as sure of firing and killing as a modern centerfire scoped weapon! That's why they will let you replace it with whatever type of lesser weapon you wish!

Chuck

 

If Michigan were to restrict the now present single ML season to traditional rifles only, I would would also vote for restriction of traditional rifles banning them from the regular firearm season.

:m2c: :imo:

Upon what "basis" would you vote to eliminate the few traditional muzzleloaders be'n used dur'n Michigan's regular firearms season????

YMHS
rollingb

 

[graybeard]

Fellers: We have a special problem in Michigan. Remember, there's a line across the state and the southern third of the Lower Peninsula is restricted to shotguns and muzzleloaders only. The reason given for this is that the thicker population makes long-range rifles, and in the minds of the state this includes everything from .30-30s to .300 Weatherbys, too dangerous. With the current advertising for in-lines, I fear the state is going to decide ALL rifles have too much range for the southern third of the state. Personally, I think Pennsylvania has a pretty good set of rules, something for everyone. Since I don't bowhunt, I object to Michigan's bowhunters getting the first and longest season. I do hunt southern lower Michigan during the regular firearms season with a muzzleloader. I don't put glass sights on any of my muzzleloaders. I would like to see a primitive season in Michigan for flintlocks only. But I feel making me wear completely pre-1840 clothing, etc., is carrying the argument to absurd lengths. Anyway, Michigan is so blessed with game and state forests to hunt in that I can't get too upset over the rules. I've hunted every black powder season for years and years and have seen just one in-line rifle in the woods in that time. graybeard :m2c:

 

[Tahquamenon]

Huntinfool :yakyak:

Now you are getting into an inline bashing mode talking about 209 primers and inline rifles.
I've been waiting for your true colors to shine.

If you are so smart, then wave your magic wand and re-define muzzleloading rifles on a national level that excludes versions of an inline design. Then you can be happy.

I understand the rules just fine. You take my comment as discriminating against traditional rifles which is not really the case as I have many traditional styled rifles.

What about the guy that bought his first muzzleloader (Without consulting you first, which happens to be an inline style) and for a time, is allowed to hunt a specific season only to find out it's later not allowed? I'm sure he will feel discrimination. Any you could care less. Which is fine unless it's you that is missing out, then that's something different.

Hypocrite.

My point is/was if we are to have specialized seasons, why not make them specialized for all?

BTW Bow hunting is not allowed during the regular or ML firearm seasons here in Michigan. And firearms are not allowed during bow seasons.

I am very much in favor of a Flintlock or earlier season.
Got my first ever flintlock last weekend.

 

[Huntinfool]

Huntinfool :yakyak:

Now you are getting into an inline bashing mode talking about 209 primers and inline rifles.
I've been waiting for your true colors to shine.

You have no idea about my true colors you aren't the only one my post was aimed at as I said "Fellows" There was a comparison made in a post by Zonie and a few others about inlines being the same as flintlocks and percussion caps sans the scopes.

Zonie said,"Personally, I have said all along that the In-lines have no real advantage over the Flintlock or the Caplock if they are limited to Iron Sights Only."

I wasn't bashing anything just making a point there's more to it than iron sights! Probably out in Arizona there's no advantage but where it stays wet 60% of the time there's a big advantage to a closed ignition system such as a 209 primer.

All I'm saying is that there is no comparison when you are using a 209 primer. I'm not bashing them as I said my friend, one of my best friends uses them. And I'll defend his right to use them but no one in their right mind will say that a modern inline with 209 shot shell primers are comparable to a traditional ML.

And I never said anything about rifle replacing bows I said Bows and lesser weapons can usually replace centerfire rifle get your facts straight. As they can in Michican too!!!! And I'm not a hypocrite I say exactly what I am and exactly what I mean!

I don't go around trying to start something through the back door everyone knows exactly how I feel. I fought tooth and nail to get a ML season and I don't appreciate the big money outfits lobbying to get every new invention under the sun legal to use in the primitive season that I fought so hard to get.

I see nothing wrong with inlines they are a fine modern weapon. In my opinion they should be in the same category as any other centerfire weapon if they use centerfire primers! Hey, I used to own an inline I'm not speaking from the back seat, I'm speaking from first hand knowledge!

I'm sorry I even got into this discussion you obviously don't know what you are talking about. I'm even beginning to question as to whether you are even a hunter at all.

After making a statement such as this one! "BTW Bow hunting is not allowed during the regular or ML firearm seasons here in Michigan. And firearms are not allowed during bow seasons."

You don't even know laws in your own state. You'd better check your game laws again! That's all I have to say on this matter!

Chuck