Primitive seasons being revisited

[Tahquamenon]

The effective range of most modern ML's is about 200 yards depending on what you are shooting but things drop like a rock past 200.

I have seen posts from those who claim to think nuthin of shoot'n a deer with a modern inline at 300-350 yards!!
I certainly wouldn't consider thet a "short-range" muzzleloader by any strech of the imagination,..... does the state of Michigan?????
You are really off down the wrong trail here. Michigan does not specify range other than having a rifle zone in the upper half of the lower peninsula and in the upper peninsula where you can use anything shotgun, rifle, ML, Pistol .35cal+. The range that centerfire rifles can reach is thousands of yards. ML's just can't toss one that far. As far as long range muzzleloading, rather than trying to talk about modern ML's today, why not take a look at slightly older muzzleloaders than the ones you are quibbling about now?

http://www.lrml.org/index.htm

Please take the time to review this website versus bantering here over this subject.

I've done some long range ML shooting but not much. I would like to get a longer range ML with iron sights and am very close to a deal on a Pedersoli Tryon .45 cal with 1:22 rifling. This rifle will be a beyond 200+ yard shooter.

You and several other folks keep on ragging on just how different modern ML's are and it boggles my mind that traditional folks pride themselves on historical aspects seem to constantly forget or disregard actual history. I am no historian and I'm not picking fights here. These are slightly older design muzzleloaders (available today) that are effective with 150 grains of powder out to 2000+ yards. So your point regarding modern ML's and long range is really unfounded. Anything can shoot farther if you sight correct to do so. Pick something else to complain about. Like perhaps just how waterproof 209 primers are. ::

Couple thet with "claims" of 3 3/4" groups at 500 yards, and how do you think various game departments are gonna start look'n at muzzleloaders???? Well, my friends in the Michigan DNR have evaluated even the longest range ML's and they don't consider them in the same class as a .30/06 and neither do I, as you and other folks here would like to live in fantasy about. With the proper iron sight such as a creedmore or peep, the right sight correction and load, and faster rifling to stabilize a prjectile, you can shoot out to 500 yards easily with great accuracy regardless of just how modern or older you ML style is. Pick something else to complain about like ballistics or something. ::

rollingb

 

The range that centerfire rifles can reach is thousands of yards. ML's just can't toss one that far.

I am no historian and I'm not picking fights here. These are slightly older design muzzleloaders (available today) that are effective with 150 grains of powder out to 2000+ yards. ::

I'm pleased to hear thet yore not try'n to "pick a fight" here,.... because after read'n the two quotes above, I'm not sure "which side" yore on!!!! :haha: :crackup:

rollingb

 

[Tahquamenon]

I'm happy if you are happy.

Learn anything new about long range old style muzzleloaders?

 

[RussB]

Tahquamenin seez......"http://www.lrml.org/index.htm

Please take the time to review this website versus bantering here over this subject.

I've done some long range ML shooting but not much. I would like to get a longer range ML with iron sights and am very close to a deal on a Pedersoli Tryon .45 cal with 1:22 rifling. This rifle will be a beyond 200+ yard shooter" (snip).......

I am in agreement that Long Range Muzzleloading is a "sport within a sport", and is historically correct.

I am also in agreement that it is a tremendous challenge for those interested in long range shooting.

I have shot a .451 Rigby, at regular 500 meter silhouettes, and rang that gonger 10 out of 10.....from the bench....... 600 mtrs. is considered mid range, and 900 to 1100 mtrs. is considered Long range. I have never shot past 600 mtrs. and I did have some serious problems going from 500 / 600 as I was unable to find that 600 zero, on that particular day.

This is an extremely sensitive subject when it comes to open discussion, but we can not deny the fact that the Creedmore Match, and long range shooting, has become a part....a very noted, and important part, of our shooting heritage.

Russ

 

[Stumpkiller]

Learn anything new about long range old style muzzleloaders?

I didn't see any old style muzzleloaders there, but they did mention a couple. The vast majority were percussion and most were post Civil War. Modern stuff. ::

Long range shooting is interesting in passing and as a pleasant diversion, but actually knowing how to hunt and getting close is what interests me. :winking:

 

Learn anything new about long range old style muzzleloaders?

Would you like us to believe thet everbuddy used the 1870's "specialty targit rifles" as hunt'n rifles of the time?? :haha: :haha:

rollingb

 

[Tahquamenon]

The information regarding the longer range capability of older style (pre 1860 non modern) rifles is what I was referring to.

Some folks like to claim that modern ML's have the market cornered on long range capability. Just not true.

I'm with you regarding long range hunting. Long range target shooting however is huge fun with centerfires and I wish to try it with ML's which is why I'm looking at the DP Tyron with a 1:22" rifling.

Closer range hunting is what I do as well. I don't think there is many 500 yard shot opportunities in the State of Michigan anyway. The growth is heavy here. You might find a longer range shot across a 640 A/C corn field or something along a gas or power line route. In fact, 200 yards is about the top end here and most of the time much less sometimes much less than 100 yards depending on where you hunt.

 

[Tahquamenon]

Of course not. But you are stereotype casting all modern ML's which is discriminative in nature. Which is fine, but why? Does this make you feel better? Or just trying to argue and hash?

Not everyone is shooting to 200 yards with modern or older style ML's. In fact most folks are only sighted to 100 yards with or without optics. Perhaps 150 yards. Most of the available hunting shots on deer are much less than 200 yards here in Michigan. Out west is another story where you have longer range shooting or limited opportunities at shorter ranges.

Just like not everyone (I don't know anyone) that is shooting with 150gr powder.

I like you Rollingb and am trying to sincerely participate without being partisan.

:winking:

 

Tahquamenon I like you to, and I think "debate" is good , but modern inlines shoot'n modern components and etc. will never be the "same" as traditional muzzleloaders shoot'n traditional components such as roundballs and etc.

Why anyone would put a "fast twist" barrel on a traditional muzzleloader in order to make it "sumpthin" it ain't, is beyond me, unless one do'n so wants to gain an "advantage" of some sort!!
This brings us right back to the begin'n of this thread, which is about the "limitations" of traditional muzzleloaders when compared to modern inlines shoot'n huge powder-charges (and in some cases, even "smokeless" powder), water-proof 209/or disc ignition, and expensive jacketed bullets, in order to extend ther range of ballistics.

Everyone knows if you push a lead conical too fast it will "lead" the bore terribly,.... isn't more velocity the main reason for plastic sabots and jacketed bullets be'n used in modern inlines???? :: ::

You will never convince me thet if modern inlines offer "no advantages" when compared to traditional muzzleloaders, ther would still be a market for'em!! Wild "claims" of the modern inline industry must be "based" on sumpthin, or they would not be able to stay in business.

I've already stated thet "the sky is the limit" wher modern technology is concerned, and alter'n a traditional muzzleloader to be fired with modern components renders the rifle no longer "traditional" regardless of "looks".

IMO, modern inlines are nuthin more than "modified" centerfires with enhanced muzzleloader ballistics, and by change'n anythin on a traditional rifle to shoot simular components results in a "modified" traditional muzzleloader thet is no longer "worthy" of the traditional moniker!!

Is a "street rod" still a "Model A", when the hood is down??????

rollingb

 

[No Deer]

Why anyone would put a "fast twist" barrel on a traditional muzzleloader in order to make it "sumpthin" it ain't, is beyond me,

Why anyone would put a twist in any muzzleloader is beyond me! :crackup: :crackup:

Smoothbores rule! :thumbsup: :crackup:

 

[sse]

Hey, maybe they'll come out with a smoothbore in-line with a camo stock. :haha: :haha: :no: :no:

 

i believe you can get a interchangable barrel for remingtion and savage shotguns so you can shoot BP and load from the muzzle.
cabelas used to sell some at one time

 

[Tahquamenon]

I never was trying to say everything was the same between the modern and the older style ML's. Just that many things are not so different and some key things are identical.

All of this debate reminds me of the Leupy M-8 4x scope I installed on a very elderly man's T/C New Englander years ago.
A dear friend of my father and I. His eyesight was failing and did not feel safe to ML hunt. My dad (whom is not into ML's) asked me if there was something we could do with the New Englander as far as optics. This was before a scope mount was available. I had a mount made for the New Englander and I put one of my older M-8 4x scopes on there. It shot like a dream and this old fella deer hunted PRB with that setup for another 4 years before his death bagging three deer along the way. To me, that's four years that he could have just sat at home not in the field. I cried like a baby at his funeral and even more when his daughter showed up at my house months later to give me that very same New Englander.

I tell you this because I want you to know that I do care about these important issues that we discuss.

Back to the seasonal issue. For me, I own, target and hunt my own and other private properties but also hunt state or federal lands. Here in Michigan, the current ML law prevails over the private use of my own property.

When the "Get rid of the modern ML during ML season" gang tries to change the seasonal laws here in Michigan. This means that so in order for the modern ML during ML season hating folks to have what they wish, I get to not hunt my own land with my own ML choice. So it's not just an issue over shared properties such as state or federal game areas.

I said I was for a primitive season based on the flintlock or earlier. I've been and am in contact with the DNR and our legislation voicing for this very thing. For a couple of reasons but mostly because the habitat can support a specialized season like a primitive flintlock. Not just so I can bag another deer either. Only two buck tags here for all firearm seasons and doe tags are not unlimited. Some years I don't fill both buck tags quite on purpose. Last year I did not.

Primitive Flint Season - This also affects my choices on my land.

Which I am fine with because I would rather have my own hunting rights on my own land changed to offer a truly primitive window statewide that gives the traditionalist (and those like me whom just like the weapons) a chance to do their thing.

But I will fight bitterly for the rights to maintain our present Michigan ML season and it's characteristics, which allows me to legally select whichever ML style I prefer to hunt with on my land.

Last year for deer season was a T/C Omega & open sights, Knight MK-85/Zeiss Conquest & a beat up CVA Mountain Rifle in 54 cap/PRB.

The year before was a T/C Hawken 54cap /conical, Investarms 50 cap Hawken & PRB and a Rem 700ML topped with a Leupold VXII3x9x40.

Next year will be the Omega with a cryo treated barrel & a Leupold VXIII 2.5x8x36, along with my new to me but gently used T/C Hawken 45 cap, NIB T/C 50 cal Flint and NIB T/C Firestorm 209.

Ok, so not everyone is fortunate to have their own land. I appreciate that, for a long time I hunted public lands and still do sometimes but not for deer now. There is something for everyone, if we can find the medium for all to be happy. Not sure what it is but I do know we will get there together.

eace:

 

[roundball]

Hey, maybe they'll come out with a smoothbore in-line with a camo stock. :haha: :haha: :no: :no:

Knight already offers one...and it has a 'jug choked' barrel;

TC's is a barrel for the Encore...don't know if it's jug choked or has screw in chokes

 

[Huntinfool]

Ok, so not everyone is fortunate to have their own land. I appreciate that, for a long time I hunted public lands and still do sometimes but not for deer now. There is something for everyone, if we can find the medium for all to be happy. Not sure what it is but I do know we will get there together.
eace:

Hey the laws effect our own land here also I have 50+ acres of my own land and I still have to obey the laws concerning weapons used.

That isn't the issue here and neither does anyone wish to outlaw inlines. Most of us just want to have a primitive ML season like we had before the inline manufacturers capitalized on the fact of the ML season!

That's all it has nothing to do with bashing them except for the fact that they are not the reason we got our seasons in the first place. It was the traditional ML that the seasons were originally set up for!

I don't want to see them banned anymore than I do my Glock or my custom .308! We just want a traditional only ML season. Much like PA and a couple of other states have had the good sense to implement.

Chuck

 

[graybeard]

Huntinfool: I stand corrected. You DO have a problem. Here in Michigan I haven't seen one, but I have to admit to a very narrow one-hunter wide field of view. Here in Michigan about the only time I feel comfortable deer hunting public land is during the black powder season. I have hunted popular game areas close to major population centers and never seen another hunter during the black powder season. Numbers on your side are all that will work when dealing with politicians. Good luck. I worked in Parkersburgh for a year many years ago and remember fondly that WV also has trout streams, whitetail deer and ruffed grouse. :RO: graybeard