Primitive seasons being revisited

[Tahquamenon]

I am to sorry for broaching into this discussion.

You are not as familiar with Michigan laws as you think you are. You are also not familiar with my hunting skills as I am very sucessful and fortunate at hunting.

You have just managed to alienate yet another individual that was interested in the TMA.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Remember, there's a line across the state and the southern third of the Lower Peninsula is restricted to shotguns and muzzleloaders only. The reason given for this is that the thicker population makes long-range rifles, and in the minds of the state this includes everything from .30-30s to .300 Weatherbys, too dangerous. With the current advertising for in-lines, I fear the state is going to decide ALL rifles have too much range for the southern third of the state.

That's been my concern here in NY, also. In my area a .45-70 is illegal for regular season, so how different in range or lethality is a muzzleloader firing 400 gr conical ahead of 120 gr of Triple 7?

There's a 50/50 chance a lightbulb might pop on in Albany and some legislation gets rolling that says "Muzzleloaders are also too dangerous" in designated high population areas instead of "Conicals in muzzleloaders are too dangerous".

When you get greedy everyone looses.

I don't mine in-lines. I mind conicals and scopes.

 

The founders of the TMA realized from the very start, thet the TMA would not appeal to everbuddy and it was never the intention of the founders thet it should. This is largely what seperates the TMA from some other national organizations.

Support it, or reject it, the TMA stands for the presevation of our traditional muzzleloading heritage wether in the hunt'n fields or the enjoyment of competition shooting.

rollingb

 

[Huntinfool]

Well either Michigan DNR is wrong or you are. I guess they must be wrong!

You weren't interested in the TMA you are interested in arguing! And you don't have your facts straight! Check the MI DNR regulations! A bow or ML can be used during reg. firearms season!

As I said before I'm through discussing this with you!

Chuck

 

[wil]

:nono: HEY!!!!!!
I don't think that you need to resort to name calling. Everyone is entitled to there opinion, because when I woke up this morning this was still the United States and the Bill of Rights was still in place. You said earlyer that you were not trying to pick a fight, well you could've fooled me. So do us all a favor and keep your personal comments about folks to yourself. By slandering folks, does not make any of your statements that more valid.
Very dissapointing :shake:
Wil

 

[sse]

I am pretty sure that during regular firearms season, in Michigan, you can use a bow or muzzleloader. In fact bow season goes right from the first of October right through to Jan 1st. I am not sure whether a bow hunter is allowed to go without hunter orange for the whole time, though. Somebody can correct me if I am wrong, but to be honest, the game laws can be so confusing, sometimes it takes a call to the Dept to get a straight answer.

There is no question that reducing the use of non-traditional muzzleloaders will adversely affect those that have them, but then maybe those users would end up going traditional. ??!! Wouldn't bother me.

Regards, sse

 

[loophole]

I don't have a dog in this fight because I decided several years ago that I'm not a deer hunter. However, for years I hunted them with everything from a .45 cal. flintlock which I built to a 45-70 ruger no.3 carbine with iron sights to a 30-06 with a 3x9 scope. I've shot super accurate varmint rifles, lever actions and black powder cartridge rifles, a number of machine guns, and an M-79 grenade launcher. I could find a lot to enjoy about any of those weapons. What I can't understand--I really mean this respectfully--is what anyone sees in a modern muzzle loader. It has no history or tradition going for it, but it still is a relatively inefficient weapon which is a mess to clean up.

Please explain to me why you hunt with or shoot an in-line. Is it just the opportunity to get another week or two of deer season, or is there something I've missed? Please understand that I'm not questioning your right to hunt with anything to choose, and I'm not raising doubts about anyone's parentage or patriotism. I know some people are passionate about modern muzzleloaders; I just don't know why and I'd like to understand.

If at first hyou don't secede, try, try again.

 

[Darkhorse]

Regarding the Traditional only hunt in Kentucky at the Daniel Boone NF, I went to the website a few weeks ago because I thought I might make a trip up there next season. Unfortunately nowhere could I find any indication that area was restricted to traditional weapons.
So, if anyone has any hard evidence to support the traditional only restrictions please point me there.

Georgia is definitely not going back to the way it was supposed to be. The biggest issue with ML's right now is getting legislation passed to use scopes during their one week inline season. Our whole ML season was only about money. Our season comes in during October and goes out in mid January. You can use anything you want during the rut. And doe days are everyday, with a 12 deer limit (2 bucks) So that one October ML season is a moot point. But the encore, knight crowd rush to buy that tag.
NO WAY the state is going to do anything to stop that cash flow.

 

[Tahquamenon]

I'm very sorry folks. I really like all of you and certainly wish no offense.
eace:

Loophole:
I hunt with an Inline for the same reasons as why I also hunt with caplocks and just bought a flintlock. I enjoy all muzzleloading weapons. Some years I only hunt the firearm seasons with caplocks. Other years I'll hunt with everything or a combination thereof. I killed my first deer many moons ago with 50 cal T/C Hawken and PRB.
I also hunt with and shoot centerfire shotguns, rifles and pistols. I enjoy them very much as well.
This year I only hunted small game with caplock rifles. Last year was with a Benelli SBE.

I stand humbly corrected that bows are allowed throughout the firearms seasons in Michigan. Just that you cannot carry both a field, one or the other.

But firearms are not allowed during the bow seasons in Michigan.

The laws in Michigan regarding muzzleloaders says nothing about being "Traditional". And in case no one has been paying attention, traditionally styled muzzleloader sales are not even close to that of modern inline styles and have been behind for many years. So don't you think all of these Inline shooters are going to (and have a right to) have their say? Or perhaps we all just think they will say "Oh, you are right, my ML is really not an ML and it's ok with me if we exclude it during ML season".

So if we put the present Michigan ML season as well as other states to a vote (Which in a democracy, would only be fair) for "traditionally styled ML's Only", I can almost guarantee what will happen. This idea might pass but I think it will loose, loose huge and continue to do so.

The muzzleloading seasons in Michigan and many other states were not established for folks to be "traditional". They were established because of the nature of the weapon as being single shot in nature and hand loaded a field=muzzleloader. When the rule was established, only traditional styled ML's were available, yet the rule mentions nothing about having to act traditional. :hmm:
I wonder why?

So the only way to establish a traditionally styled seasons is to approach the issue based on function and implementation not style and designate specialized windows for use. As in primitive flintlock or earlier for a particular season. This would exclude based on function, without discrimination. I think the caplock and the caplock or primered ignition inline are too close in function to legally be so different as to exclude one or the other. Many folks disagree here in this forum, which is perfectly ok with me.

The idea excluding the inline designs just because the now growing minority just does not want them a field I just don't think is going to fly. I'm not champion for the inline, but I'm also not bashing them either. Modern ML's are a reality folks and they are a hand loaded from the muzzle firearm, or at least the last time I shot one they were.
I'm trying to look at what is the likely opportunity for everyone a field to feel included and yet not alienated.

Just how do you think that we can gain more folks to get into traditionally styled rifles? By telling the vast number of inline shooters that their inline is no longer a muzzleloader during ML season, that they can only use their rifle during centerfire seasons? You can try, but I won't take that bet here in Michigan or many other states.

Just a view on this issue. I'm not trying to convert anyone here. I support primitive seasons, but not at the cost of and alienation of other muzzleloader shooters. These shooters have their rights adn opportunities as well. At least they should here in the USA. And if not here then where?

eace:

 

The above is the definition in the Idaho DFG 2004 Regulations. They have since approved the use of full caliber lead conicals as well (No Sabots).
Idaho PRB

===========================================================+
Idaho PRB
check you regs for traditional units. this wording is a sneek by IFG and they have let inlines into all hunts deemed muzzleloading . this includes short range hunts on the payette and snake rivers .
take a close look and you will find the traditional hunts are just about none exsistant .

 

ok , ok settle down folks .

first off as to here in Idaho what we all call a general season is really an any weapon season and you can hunt with a spear in that season if you like . However that

 

[loophole]

Thanks for the response. In your opinion how many modern muzzle loaders would be sold if they were not allowed during the primitive weapons season? Would anyone hunt with one during the regular season?

 

[Hoyt]

Darkhorse..

I got my info. from a Kentucky hunting forum..here's what one guy said.."I think you are talking of The Pioneer Weapons Area at Cave Run Lake in Bath county. There are a lot of birds in the area. Outdoor life just did an article on the area saying it was one of the best to bad they forgot to tell their readers they better bring a sidelock or flintlock shotgun!"

Here's the url if you want to get some more info. Kentucky

 

[Tahquamenon]

Thanks for the response. In your opinion how many modern muzzle loaders would be sold if they were not allowed during the primitive weapons season? Would anyone hunt with one during the regular season?

I don't know for sure. Certainly less.

I hunt with modern ML's on occassion during the regular season. I know many folks that hunt with ML's during the regular firearms season.

I deer hunt with anything legal. Even single shot iron sight pistol in 44Mag. Next year I'll take a crack at 45 cal percussion rifle and 50 cal flintlock.

Now for small game other than squirrel, I rarely see or hear of anyone a field carrying an ML rifle other than myself. Mostly ML or centerfire shotguns.

 

The muzzleloading seasons in Michigan and many other states were not established for folks to be "traditional". They were established because of the nature of the weapon as being single shot in nature and hand loaded a field=muzzleloader. When the rule was established, only traditional styled ML's were available, yet the rule mentions nothing about having to act traditional. :hmm:
I wonder why?

I sense a bit of "confusion" in this statement,.... NO state has ever based ther hunt'n regulations on "acting" .
I know of NO traditionalists thet wish to have a hunt'n season based on "acting" !!

So the only way to establish a traditionally styled seasons is to approach the issue based on function and implementation not style and designate specialized windows for use. As in primitive flintlock or earlier for a particular season.

This was done when yore muzzleloader season was first introduced, however "language" was not included to "bar" sumpthin (modern inlines) thet hadn't been designed for the open market yet such as today's modern inlines.

I think the caplock and the caplock or primered ignition inline are too close in function to legally be so different as to exclude one or the other.

So on what basis are modern inlines more attractive to some shooters then traditional muzzleloaders if ther are no preceived advantages when compared to traditional muzzleloaders?? (I have asked this question before on this very thread, and still haven't got an answer!)

The idea excluding the inline designs just because the now growing minority just does not want them a field I just don't think is going to fly. I'm not champion for the inline, but I'm also not bashing them either. Modern ML's are a reality folks and they are a hand loaded from the muzzle firearm, or at least the last time I shot one they were.
I'm trying to look at what is the likely opportunity for everyone a field to feel included and yet not alienated.

IMO it is the modern inline thet "encroached" upon muzzleloader hunt'n season designed "for and by" traditional muzzleloaders, and are do'n ther best to "alienate" traditional muzzleloaders by say'n "if you want a primitive season, then go lobby for one",.... in other words "they" expect "us" to start over agin, by take'n over the exist'n muzzleloader hunt'n seasons traditionalists worked so hard for from the begin'n .

I'm sure they (the inliner's) find "intrusion" much easier to accomplish, then lobby'n for a modern-muzzleloader season of ther "own",.... in fact this attitude fits well into ther desire of modern muzzleloaders thet are easier to "clean", easier to "weather-proof", and easier to harvest game at "extended ranges"!!

Just how do you think that we can gain more folks to get into traditionally styled rifles? By telling the vast number of inline shooters that their inline is no longer a muzzleloader during ML season, that they can only use their rifle during centerfire seasons? I'm not trying to convert anyone here. I support primitive seasons, but not at the cost of and alienation of other muzzleloader shooters. These shooters have their rights adn opportunities as well. At least they should here in the USA. And if not here then where?

What about the " rights of the traditionalists" thet lobbied for the original muzzleloader seasons across this nation,.... are they to be ignored by today's modern inliner's and the money-hungry inline industry??????

I bet if a traditionalist stepped on an inliner's toe,.... he'd "howl" too!! (in fact, I think I detect some "howl'n" right now!! :haha

Traditionalist are simply try'n to regain what has been take'n over by today's modern inline muzzleloader!! :imo: :m2c:

rollingb

 

[roundball]

Thanks for the response. In your opinion how many modern muzzle loaders would be sold if they were not allowed during the primitive weapons season? Would anyone hunt with one during the regular season?

There's no confusing all the modern components and design with anything from the early American muzzleloading era, and there's no nostalgic or historical connection to them...so it would be a stretch for me to believe that people would go to the bother when they could just grab a .30-30 and step into the woods...if I had one and could only use it during regular firearms seasons, I'd stick it in the back of the closet and never use it again
:m2c:

 

[Tahquamenon]

I bet if a traditionalist stepped on an inliner's toe,.... he'd "howl" too!! (in fact, I think I detect some "howl'n" right now!! :haha

Would take much bigger feet than yours stepping on my toes to make me howl. Besides, you would have to catch me carrying one of my inlines. Much of the time I'm knocking around with a sidelock.
:winking: :blah:

My point was that the existing ML laws were focused on the Weapon implement that was used (loaded from the muzzle) versus the approach (traditionalist/historian/etc versus a guy that just likes to hunt with ML's). I've been hunting with a sidelock since the early 70's and I'm no traditionalist.

Well, get out and change the laws to suit your needs then.
I've got plenty of options to hunt with unless all guns are outlawed and then we will have more important things to quibble about than this.

Just don't complain if put to a democratic vote (I think we still do that in this country) and you end up being out voted.

I wish it were not the case, but gun shops are dropping the older styled rifles like bad habits. So what are new ML shooter finding in the shops? :hmm: I wonder?
Do you think that the number of inline shooters are growing or shrinking? Do you think they will vote if given the opportunity?

Writing on the wall in my view and barring modern ML's from present opportunity will take democracy. Which will undoubtedly make some folks very unhappy and just might not turn out as many folks here hope they will.

It's very saddening to me to not even see a catalog for older styled ML's in gun shops let alone a new one on the rack. Normally you might find a worn out or neglected sidelock on the rack. Every now and then something nice shows up.

Fine, let's change the existing ML laws to exclude modern rifles. Then the modern ML crowd can get push to get their own seasons (I'll help) and exclude the traditionally styled ML's. After all if it's special seasons were after then should not everyone have their own? :shocking:

I've been pushing on my legislation here in MI for a long time for a primitive Flintlock or earlier ML hunt season BEFORE the regular firearm season. Years before I ever had a Flintlock (which was only last weekend).

The present ML seasons are after the regular firearm seasons in Michigan.

I'm not your enemy here in this forum or in the voting booth. But remember, the laws need to be such so to preserve opportunity for everyone without discrimination. And folks from all facet's will lobby for their say.
I feel the pain of the traditional ML'er in regards to the modern ML rifles. But it's somewhat akin to how the indians must have felt when the white man showed up in my view. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. But reality.
Perhaps not, but I'm not the only one that understands this.

 

Well, get out and change the laws to suit your needs then.

Well I guess traditionalists WILL have to put forth ther efforts a "second" time, thanks to the intrusion of modern inline muzzleloaders.

Just don't complain if put to a democratic vote (I think we still do that in this country) and you end up being out voted.

Was "voteing" the process used by those use'n modern inlines to be included in muzzleloading only seasons?????????? (I don't remember be'n asked to vote!!) :hmm:

I wish it were not the case, but gun shops are dropping the older styled rifles like bad habits. So what are new ML shooter finding in the shops? :hmm: I wonder?
Do you think that the number of inline shooters are growing or shrinking? Do you think they will vote if given the opportunity?

Any increase of modern inlines is due to marketing advertise'n!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Writing on the wall in my view and barring modern ML's from present opportunity will take democracy. Which will undoubtedly make some folks very unhappy and just might not turn out as many folks here hope they will.

Changes in hunt'n regulations, are mostly due to "lobby'n", thet's how modern inlines have "wiggled" ther way into many of the muzzleloading seasons established by traditionalists, instead of try'n to git a season of ther own!!

It's very saddening to me to not even see a catalog for older styled ML's in gun shops let alone a new one on the rack. Normally you might find a worn out or neglected sidelock on the rack. Every now and then something nice shows up.

Once agin, this is due to "marketing",.... what "other choice" do some newbies have, when the only muzzleloaders in the racks are modern inlines???????????

Fine, let's change the existing ML laws to exclude modern rifles. Then the modern ML crowd can get push to get their own seasons (I'll help) and exclude the traditionally styled ML's. After all if it's special seasons were after then should not everyone have their own? :shocking:

Surely modern inliner's (be'n the "understand'n souls" they claim to be) wouldn't want to discriminate aginst modern centerfires,..... would they?????? :crackup: :crackup:

I've been pushing on my legislation here in MI for a long time for a primitive Flintlock or earlier ML hunt season BEFORE the regular firearm season. Years before I ever had a Flintlock (which was only last weekend).

:hmm: I jest bet you have!! :crackup: :crackup:

The present ML seasons are after the regular firearm seasons in Michigan.

So what's the problem???? :hmm: ::

I'm not your enemy here in this forum or in the voting booth. But remember, the laws need to be such so to preserve opportunity for everyone without discrimination. And folks from all facet's will lobby for their say.
I feel the pain of the traditional ML'er in regards to the modern ML rifles. But it's somewhat akin to how the indians must have felt when the white man showed up in my view. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. But reality.
Perhaps not, but I'm not the only one that understands this.

Then "why" does this thread cause you to post, if you don't feel at least sightly threatened by the possiblity of modern inlines be'n excluded from "primitive muzzleloader hunts"????????? :hmm: :crackup: :crackup:

rollingb

 

[Stumpkiller]

Just don't complain if put to a democratic vote (I think we still do that in this country) and you end up being out voted.

I don't recall EVER being allowed to vote on any hunting or fishing rules and regulations in the 27 years I have been old enough to vote.

We get to pick from a small list of idiots in either the Heartless Party or the Brainless Party, and then those idiots make our decisions based on how rich it makes them and their friends.

They'll draft a state bill, which will combine hot lunches for orphans and restricted hunting and a pay raise for politicians, and then call each other evil if they don't pass the Orphan Bill.

 

[Tahquamenon]

Thanks for the great debate. I post because I am a minority viewpoint here, that's no secret and I am willing to discuss things that are not popular amongst the mass opinion.

I'm not threatened by anything or anyone. Like I said, I've got plenty of options to hunt with. Change the law and I'll simply select a different weapon that's legal.
If you analyze the threads regarding the whole modern ML season issue, the scant few modern ML shooters are not the ones that appear "threatened".

Modern muzzleloaders are muzzleloading rifles whether you like them or not.
I guess that the founding fathers of the ML seasons did not have foresight that an ancient ML design would be revived, become wildly popular and yet offer such a partisan aspect to muzzleloading and the seasons for use.

So you are going to have to get more creative than just complaining if you wish them banned from the woods or from the seasons. I prefer to figure out how to live with the inevitable versus to try to do without or ban them from existence.

FWIW, I introduce Modern ML folks along with new to ML's to sidelock percussions all the time.
The difference is I suppose, I treat them as a fellow enthusiast versus the "Enemy".