just keep in-lines in regular seasons with there scopes, bolts and primers....just cause it's loaded from the front doesn't make it a true ( traditional ) muzzleloader does it???....thats all....and keep trad season fer cap and flints..............bob
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Primitive seasons being revisited
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Tahquamenon
45 Cal.
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In yore opinion, why do fellas buy inlines when they could jest as well buy a traditional muzzleloader instead ???? Rollingb, I honestly don't know other than when a fella walks into as store, what does he see on the shelf? Also, many folks new to ML are brought in by fellow shooters of either/both centerfire rifles and shotguns. Then they go back to the same store mentioned above and what do they see? Lastly, you have the salesman that is trying to make the sale and if the choices are limited or not at all then what? It's a terrible shame about the the traditional styled production ML's.
You have to remember, the bulk of the modern ML shooters are not shooting year round. Only for sighting in and hunting and the occassional "let's shoot a few".
I see many modern inlines priced higher then some excellent sidelock muzzleloaders,.... so thet elminates "price" as an issue. :hmm: Not really. If you take Cabela's as an example. The prices are fairly comperable with inlines being 10 times as available. The top of the line Modern Production ML's are in the 450-800 list price range. Top of the line sidelock production rifles are easily in the same range and that's not counting a nice kit ML which can get really spendy and you get to build it yourself. Customs Traditional rifles are really just as much artwork as they are functional tools so the costs are huge. There are a few custom modern ML makers but not that many.
Also,.... how is the increased expense of popular modern components used in modern inlines justified when compared to blackpowder and patched home-cast roundballs, if they don't offer greater ballistics and reliability???? :: Not sure what you mean? Optics, rings and mounts? Yep they can get really spendy. I just snagged up another Lupey VX-III 2.5x8 so I know how much optics are. But other than optics, that leaves the sabot which is truly expensive along with some of the conicals. But many conical's are very inexpensive. I'm going to try my hand at casting my own conical's this summer. But powder is powder and primers are about the same as caps, cleaning/maintenance is the same, shooting aids like cappers and nitnoids are about the same? So I'm not sure what is an added expense? Other than optics and some projectiles there are none.
How do you compare the ballistics of a modern inline and 150 grs. of powder behind a saboted jacketed bullet, with the 45-70, 45-90, 45-110, or the 45-120 cartridges, or the 50-70, 50-90, and even the great "power-house" 50-140/500 Nitro Express cartridges????? I've no science data, but with the right load I'd stack a sabot'ed round up against anything within 150 or so yards just as I would a hefty conical or PRB tossed from a sidelock. In reality, I've never found a 150gr charge that would shoot accurately with anything. And I tend to load on the heavy side of things to the threshold of accuracy charge-wise regardless of the ML type.
What are the differences between these cartridges and the "loads" reccomended for modern inlines other than the inlines "load at the muzzle"???? No Idea. The recommended loads are from 80-120gr BP with a not to exceed of 150gr. The 150gr is really marketing fluff because nothing I've found actually shoots well at that high of a charge.
And finally,........
Why is it,... thet the 50-90 is considered as one of the greatest "long-range" buffalo cartridges in America's history,.... yet a modern inline which is fully capable of be'n loaded to even "higher ballistics" is allowed in the "special muzzleloader" hunts in Michigan under the disguise of be'n a "short-range" weapon????? :: The 50-90 is a short range cartridge along with the other cartriges you mentioned. You can sight-correct and shoot just about anything greater distances including a PRB. Not sure what your point is. The effective range of most modern ML's is about 200 yards depending on what you are shooting but things drop like a rock past 200. The effective range for a conical in a faster twist sidelock is about the same at 200 yards. For PRB, they run out of gas much more quickly with about 100-125 being tops. I consider 200 yards short range. Not sure what your point is but it looks like you wish to say the the modern ML is the same as a heavy BP cartrige. It's not, but the ballistics can be similar as long as we are talking sabot or conical and then old and new style ML's will have very close ballistics. Nothing special about the modern ML in the ballistics area with sabot and conical as the older style with the right twist will shoot them just as well and effective with similar ballistics. And if you are trying to compare PRB to conical or sabot, then why? Not the same animal.
If yore not comfortable answer'n this last question,.... I'll understand "why"!! :winking:
rollingb [/quote]
You have to remember, the bulk of the modern ML shooters are not shooting year round. Only for sighting in and hunting and the occassional "let's shoot a few".
I see many modern inlines priced higher then some excellent sidelock muzzleloaders,.... so thet elminates "price" as an issue. :hmm: Not really. If you take Cabela's as an example. The prices are fairly comperable with inlines being 10 times as available. The top of the line Modern Production ML's are in the 450-800 list price range. Top of the line sidelock production rifles are easily in the same range and that's not counting a nice kit ML which can get really spendy and you get to build it yourself. Customs Traditional rifles are really just as much artwork as they are functional tools so the costs are huge. There are a few custom modern ML makers but not that many.
Also,.... how is the increased expense of popular modern components used in modern inlines justified when compared to blackpowder and patched home-cast roundballs, if they don't offer greater ballistics and reliability???? :: Not sure what you mean? Optics, rings and mounts? Yep they can get really spendy. I just snagged up another Lupey VX-III 2.5x8 so I know how much optics are. But other than optics, that leaves the sabot which is truly expensive along with some of the conicals. But many conical's are very inexpensive. I'm going to try my hand at casting my own conical's this summer. But powder is powder and primers are about the same as caps, cleaning/maintenance is the same, shooting aids like cappers and nitnoids are about the same? So I'm not sure what is an added expense? Other than optics and some projectiles there are none.
How do you compare the ballistics of a modern inline and 150 grs. of powder behind a saboted jacketed bullet, with the 45-70, 45-90, 45-110, or the 45-120 cartridges, or the 50-70, 50-90, and even the great "power-house" 50-140/500 Nitro Express cartridges????? I've no science data, but with the right load I'd stack a sabot'ed round up against anything within 150 or so yards just as I would a hefty conical or PRB tossed from a sidelock. In reality, I've never found a 150gr charge that would shoot accurately with anything. And I tend to load on the heavy side of things to the threshold of accuracy charge-wise regardless of the ML type.
What are the differences between these cartridges and the "loads" reccomended for modern inlines other than the inlines "load at the muzzle"???? No Idea. The recommended loads are from 80-120gr BP with a not to exceed of 150gr. The 150gr is really marketing fluff because nothing I've found actually shoots well at that high of a charge.
And finally,........
Why is it,... thet the 50-90 is considered as one of the greatest "long-range" buffalo cartridges in America's history,.... yet a modern inline which is fully capable of be'n loaded to even "higher ballistics" is allowed in the "special muzzleloader" hunts in Michigan under the disguise of be'n a "short-range" weapon????? :: The 50-90 is a short range cartridge along with the other cartriges you mentioned. You can sight-correct and shoot just about anything greater distances including a PRB. Not sure what your point is. The effective range of most modern ML's is about 200 yards depending on what you are shooting but things drop like a rock past 200. The effective range for a conical in a faster twist sidelock is about the same at 200 yards. For PRB, they run out of gas much more quickly with about 100-125 being tops. I consider 200 yards short range. Not sure what your point is but it looks like you wish to say the the modern ML is the same as a heavy BP cartrige. It's not, but the ballistics can be similar as long as we are talking sabot or conical and then old and new style ML's will have very close ballistics. Nothing special about the modern ML in the ballistics area with sabot and conical as the older style with the right twist will shoot them just as well and effective with similar ballistics. And if you are trying to compare PRB to conical or sabot, then why? Not the same animal.
If yore not comfortable answer'n this last question,.... I'll understand "why"!! :winking:
rollingb [/quote]
Huntinfool
45 Cal.
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Tahquamenom you said,
"As for 209's, let's just say that they are not quite as water tight as you seem to think.
But you are the expert."
Thanks for the vote of confidence. But if your 209 primers aren't hermetically sealed with plastic foil as mine are then you must be buying some third world country's inferior products!
Old shot shell primers 35 or 40 years ago weren't sealed but all 209's are today!
Federal makes this claim:
Federal 209 Muzzleloader/Shotgun Shotshell Primers are non-corrosive, all weather primers that deliver fast, dependable ignition under any shooting situation. Perfect for trap shooting, hunting or your favorite muzzleloader. Like all Federal products, offers consistent quality.
Rem. covers theirs with a foil on the powder side!:...
Remington 209 Muzzleloader/Shotgun Shotshell Primers are regarded as some of the best by both muzzleloaders and shotgunners. Features like a consistent priming mixture for standard performance over a wide variety of reloads, a foil covered flash hole that prevents powder intrusion and an anvil that is made from cartridge bass for strength and is 100 percent inspected during manufacturer.
Last but certainly not least this is what Thompson Center has to say about the 209 primer;....
"While the use of the 209 primer will give you slightly better ballistics, the big advantage is in the reliability of these primers. Number 11 caps are prone to failure in wet and cold weather, where the 209 primer is totally waterproof and virtually eliminates cap failure. That, and the fact that it burns 700 degrees hotter than the #11 cap, should put an end to nearly all misfires, no matter what the conditions. The 209 primer is also ideally suited for use with Pyrodex Pellets."
For more information, contact Thompson/Center Arms, P.O. Box 5002, Rochester, NH, 03866, 603-332-2333, www.tcarms.com.
I copied and pasted these statements from the Manufacturers pages.
No my friend I'm not an expert I'm just knowledgeable about some things that you are not! And all of your cute remarks will not cover up this inadequacy on your part!
Lastly Tahq I have nothing against you personally but I can't stand by and let you state things that aren't true. I don't think you are a liar, I just think you are uninformed.
Chuck
"As for 209's, let's just say that they are not quite as water tight as you seem to think.
But you are the expert."
Thanks for the vote of confidence. But if your 209 primers aren't hermetically sealed with plastic foil as mine are then you must be buying some third world country's inferior products!
Old shot shell primers 35 or 40 years ago weren't sealed but all 209's are today!
Federal makes this claim:
Federal 209 Muzzleloader/Shotgun Shotshell Primers are non-corrosive, all weather primers that deliver fast, dependable ignition under any shooting situation. Perfect for trap shooting, hunting or your favorite muzzleloader. Like all Federal products, offers consistent quality.
Rem. covers theirs with a foil on the powder side!:...
Remington 209 Muzzleloader/Shotgun Shotshell Primers are regarded as some of the best by both muzzleloaders and shotgunners. Features like a consistent priming mixture for standard performance over a wide variety of reloads, a foil covered flash hole that prevents powder intrusion and an anvil that is made from cartridge bass for strength and is 100 percent inspected during manufacturer.
Last but certainly not least this is what Thompson Center has to say about the 209 primer;....
"While the use of the 209 primer will give you slightly better ballistics, the big advantage is in the reliability of these primers. Number 11 caps are prone to failure in wet and cold weather, where the 209 primer is totally waterproof and virtually eliminates cap failure. That, and the fact that it burns 700 degrees hotter than the #11 cap, should put an end to nearly all misfires, no matter what the conditions. The 209 primer is also ideally suited for use with Pyrodex Pellets."
For more information, contact Thompson/Center Arms, P.O. Box 5002, Rochester, NH, 03866, 603-332-2333, www.tcarms.com.
I copied and pasted these statements from the Manufacturers pages.
No my friend I'm not an expert I'm just knowledgeable about some things that you are not! And all of your cute remarks will not cover up this inadequacy on your part!
Lastly Tahq I have nothing against you personally but I can't stand by and let you state things that aren't true. I don't think you are a liar, I just think you are uninformed.
Chuck
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:shocking: It boggles my mind how I've been able to kill so many deer these past 20 years using the lowly prone to failure not hot enough #11 cap...
Without one failure.
Without one failure.
* sigh *
I'm getting the feeling that 2,000 years from now we're still going to be hearing about the in-line vs. firelock issue. Like Palestinians and Israelies. It can't be worked out by the involved parties.
Why are in-lines selling? Because they are advertized and marketed heavily. Why? Because any shop with a CNC machine and a steel source can turn out a nice one with a minimum amount of (expensive) labor and overhead. Why? Because that have a mono-block receiver and the action can be easliy dropped in a pre-formed stock, or even better, two piece stocks using less expensive small cuts of wood (or plastic). Why not a traditional firelock? Because they have to be fitted to the stock as component pieces and it is 10X more labor intensive. Leaf springs have to be formed and tempered, many pieces hand fitted to wood with screws, etc.
Marketing and Sales guys like words like "Patented", "Magnum", "Improved", "Re-engineered", "Long-range", "Radical". All designs have to be new and exciting. When was the last time you saw a car advertized as "30% slower than the average sedan!" or a cell phone with "Reduced range and battery capacity!" How about a new computer line re-introducing the 32Mhz chip with 256K of memory! Or an operating system disk that shared a drive with the storage disks and had to be constantly swapped?
If states like New York and California switched to round ball and open iron sights, we would still see modern in-line styles being introduced because they fit into the modern method of manufacturing much better than sidelocks. The market will not change unless the laws force it to, and the jeenie is too far out of the bottle for that to happen IMHO.
Get used to them. They're here. Like ATV's, compound bows and tree-stands. If you don't like them, don't use them.
Whining about them here won't change a thing. Pester someone with the power to change things in your state and federal governments. I've written four letters in tha past two months. How's about the rest of you?
I'm getting the feeling that 2,000 years from now we're still going to be hearing about the in-line vs. firelock issue. Like Palestinians and Israelies. It can't be worked out by the involved parties.
Why are in-lines selling? Because they are advertized and marketed heavily. Why? Because any shop with a CNC machine and a steel source can turn out a nice one with a minimum amount of (expensive) labor and overhead. Why? Because that have a mono-block receiver and the action can be easliy dropped in a pre-formed stock, or even better, two piece stocks using less expensive small cuts of wood (or plastic). Why not a traditional firelock? Because they have to be fitted to the stock as component pieces and it is 10X more labor intensive. Leaf springs have to be formed and tempered, many pieces hand fitted to wood with screws, etc.
Marketing and Sales guys like words like "Patented", "Magnum", "Improved", "Re-engineered", "Long-range", "Radical". All designs have to be new and exciting. When was the last time you saw a car advertized as "30% slower than the average sedan!" or a cell phone with "Reduced range and battery capacity!" How about a new computer line re-introducing the 32Mhz chip with 256K of memory! Or an operating system disk that shared a drive with the storage disks and had to be constantly swapped?
If states like New York and California switched to round ball and open iron sights, we would still see modern in-line styles being introduced because they fit into the modern method of manufacturing much better than sidelocks. The market will not change unless the laws force it to, and the jeenie is too far out of the bottle for that to happen IMHO.
Get used to them. They're here. Like ATV's, compound bows and tree-stands. If you don't like them, don't use them.
Whining about them here won't change a thing. Pester someone with the power to change things in your state and federal governments. I've written four letters in tha past two months. How's about the rest of you?
Guest
I have seen posts from those who claim to think nuthin of shoot'n a deer with a modern inline at 300-350 yards!!
I certainly wouldn't consider thet a "short-range" muzzleloader by any strech of the imagination,..... does the state of Michigan?????
Couple thet with "claims" of 3 3/4" groups at 500 yards, and how do you think various game departments are gonna start look'n at muzzleloaders????
rollingb
Guest
Stumpy,.... Yore absolutely right, but with the ever increase'n technology, modern muzzleloaders won't reach ther "peak" in ballistics until legislation says "enough is enough"!!
Modern inlines are already a "breed apart" from traditional muzzleloaders!! :imo: :m2c:
Then I'm a'feared they'll include traditional muzzleloaders in the same "group" as the "Whizy-Ulta-Magnum inlines"!!
YMHS
rollingb
Modern inlines are already a "breed apart" from traditional muzzleloaders!! :imo: :m2c:
Then I'm a'feared they'll include traditional muzzleloaders in the same "group" as the "Whizy-Ulta-Magnum inlines"!!
YMHS
rollingb
Guest
We are not talking here minor differences but major ones , plastic for wood, SS in place of drawn steal , bolt ignitions compared to exposed cap or flint . ,,, I have to wonder what it is that you see the same ???
Lets however boil it down a little further here on just how and why seasons are done and if some of you doubt what I am saying hopefully an active CO from one of the states will chime in and confirm it for ya.
Now im speaking of here in Idaho so I cant speak so much for others but the muzzleloader seasons here are usually late winter with a couple units open that are mostly private land popping up just after archery and just before general season .
Now you will find these units to be heavily populated or areas that have heavy hunter populations . Now why are the seasons needed , well for game management sometimes the general any weapon season and other special seasons take care of the numbers but not always . that
Lets however boil it down a little further here on just how and why seasons are done and if some of you doubt what I am saying hopefully an active CO from one of the states will chime in and confirm it for ya.
Now im speaking of here in Idaho so I cant speak so much for others but the muzzleloader seasons here are usually late winter with a couple units open that are mostly private land popping up just after archery and just before general season .
Now you will find these units to be heavily populated or areas that have heavy hunter populations . Now why are the seasons needed , well for game management sometimes the general any weapon season and other special seasons take care of the numbers but not always . that
Is it possible we are making too much of this? I have hunted deer in Michigan every fall for more than 30 years. When I hunt south of the shotgun line I use a conventional muzzleloader and see a few others. During the black powder season, which I have hunted for more than 20 years, I have run into just one in-line in the woods. I don't see the in-line shooters at gun clubs or impromptu ranges on state land. I know they are buying the in-lines to beat the band, but what are they doing with them? BTW, I just reread a 1991 Muzzle Blasts. At that time there were more than 25,000 NMLRA members. Now there are fewer than 20,000. Obviously, those guys buying in-lines like mad, aren't joining anything. Outside of a faint worry that the state will outlaw ALL rifles below the shotgun line, I find it hard to get worked up over guns I never see. :m2c:
graybeard
graybeard
Huntinfool
45 Cal.
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Yea Graybeard,
It might seem that way to you but down here it's a different thing all together.
WV just recently (2 years ago) made it legal to use a scope on ML during ML season. I hunt in a place that we sportsmen lobbied hard to keep from becoming a bird sanctuary.
The DNR set it up as a "Primitive Hunting Only Area" Meaning ML and Archery only. The place used to be poluted with deer but since the advent of the 209 shotshell primer and now scopes.
The place is over run with scoped inline hunters with 2 way radios they drive the place by the dozens and shoot every deer they see as ML season you're allowed to take either or.
Our ML season is late Dec. and besides myself and the two guys with me I saw no other traditional weapons used there. During the whole season I must have seen 50 other hunters.
It used to be left alone during reg firearms season because most hunters would rather be using their centerfires. But now they hunt it all seasons because the inline is essentually just a single shot modern weapon.
So it's not a moot point to me!
Chuck
It might seem that way to you but down here it's a different thing all together.
WV just recently (2 years ago) made it legal to use a scope on ML during ML season. I hunt in a place that we sportsmen lobbied hard to keep from becoming a bird sanctuary.
The DNR set it up as a "Primitive Hunting Only Area" Meaning ML and Archery only. The place used to be poluted with deer but since the advent of the 209 shotshell primer and now scopes.
The place is over run with scoped inline hunters with 2 way radios they drive the place by the dozens and shoot every deer they see as ML season you're allowed to take either or.
Our ML season is late Dec. and besides myself and the two guys with me I saw no other traditional weapons used there. During the whole season I must have seen 50 other hunters.
It used to be left alone during reg firearms season because most hunters would rather be using their centerfires. But now they hunt it all seasons because the inline is essentually just a single shot modern weapon.
So it's not a moot point to me!
Chuck
Living in PA, I am reasonably satisfied with having seasons for any muzzleloader and a season that is limited to just flintlocks. I am glad that my State initially limited the ML season to flintlocks only. The inline industry had to get the laws changed to allow their guns. We don't have to try to pass legislation to get the cat put back in the bag.
Stumpkiller is puruing the only course of action that has any chance of success. I think that the inline makers probably have to much influence (read funds for poltical contributions) to be overcome, but at least he's doing something other than whining and griping. Well at least he's griping at the right people anyway.
Guest
As far as the referance to "whining and griping" is concerned, it's good to see the "views" shared across the nation. Any chance of git'n things changed, will take a consolidated effort on a state-by-state basis and spoken with a combined voice of many hunters rather then a few individuals.
I would imagine thet a national organization would have the possibility of be'n heard above the industry's paid representatives/lobbyists. I think thet "petitions" on a state level would also git some serious attention!! :hmm: ::
YMHS
rollingb
I didn't mean any offense by that. I just wanted to point out that IMO Stumpkiller is going about it the right way.
I personally wouldn't do that on a state level (PA has about the best season I know of) but I would gladly support any nationwide effort to preserve Traditional Muzzleloading.
". I support primitive seasons, but not at the cost of and alienation of other muzzleloader shooters"
one might give some consideration to which group was here first and lobbied to have ML seasons in the first place....long before anyone redesigned a Rem 700 to load from the wrong end.
one might give some consideration to which group was here first and lobbied to have ML seasons in the first place....long before anyone redesigned a Rem 700 to load from the wrong end.
Guest
No offence taken!! :thumbsup:
Some states have various inline restrictions in place already, with some new restrictions have'n been implimented very recently,.... but the inline industry will contine to do everthin possible to git ther "latest gizmos" accepted as modern inline technology advances. IMO, I think it only fair thet the traditionalist's voice should also be heard on a national level to help "level the play'n field" so to speak!! ::
I "tip my hat" to yore state of PA for compensate'n with effect thet traditional muzzleloaders and modern inlines "are not" one and the same!! :applause:
YMHS
rollingb
Guest
To my knowledge, ther has never been an exist'n "matchlock only" hunt'n season,.... and besides, "both" of those ignition systems would be included in the "primitive seasons" along with other "traditional" styled muzzleloaders!!
Some folks would even have us believe ther is no "difference" between matchlocks, wheellocks, and modern inlines!! :crackup: :crackup:
YMHS
rollingb
Guest
Back in the era when both "systems" overlapped, hunt'n season was "year round" so I doubt if ther was any conflict of thet "nature"!! :thumbsup: :haha:
YMHS
rollingb
One thing for shore the PA late flint season made a lot of traditional flint lock shooters. I would also think that's why so many people on this forum are from PA.
I think the PAGC did a good job on the seasons here. That late season has bin in place for a long time. It would have made a lot of people mad if they changed it. It was easier to make a new season for the inlines.
That doesn't make me want to buy one thought :m2c:
Lehigh...
I think the PAGC did a good job on the seasons here. That late season has bin in place for a long time. It would have made a lot of people mad if they changed it. It was easier to make a new season for the inlines.
That doesn't make me want to buy one thought :m2c:
Lehigh...
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