Problems with TVM fowler vent.

[tg]

"My other point is the fact that for the last several years ALL I have read is how TVM is the holy grail of builders, this forum alone is responsible for probably 60% of the sales in the last 4 or 5 years, for awhile it was as though they were the only builders. Guys that were buying them were blindly singing their praises even though it was not warranted."

This is another good point and not just for the one builder mentioned but for several, it seems that all of those who highly praise some builders and steered the unknowing towards a questionable product really know very little about ML's certainly not enough to be giving high praises other than purdy wood, this becomes pretty evident as more and more flaws are found as time goes on and folks who have bought these guns learn more about what ML's should be, in time maybe the facts will overcome the hype and folks may loose interest in the wannabe type guns, it would seem like any builder would want their customer to have a fair chance when making a choice but such does not seem to be the case

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

"You failed in doing your part, probably the most important part, You failed to do the research and ask the right questions.'

I would have to dissagree with that no one should have to ask a builder if their oct to round barrel is tapered or not, what next? is the barrel bored all the way from the breech to the muzzle, this is a class case of deciet by omission in order to hang onto a market share no matter how you spin it,and that is a really crappy way or running a buisness and cannot be justified by any amount of smoke and mirrors ifs, buts and maybes.

I would agree with you except that the original poster has been a member of these forums for the last 8 years, thats along time to remain oblivious to some basic points of interest when shelling out copious amounts of cash for a semi-custom muzzleloader.

 

[jbrowngunmaker]

Apprentice builder,
Would you or someone please explain to me what a semi custom guns is. I keep seeing that term. What is the difference in custom and semi custom?

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

I feel that it is a matter of perspective, not sure there is a defined line between full custom and semi-custom.

For me semi-custom has no characteristics that set it apart from the multitude of other pieces produced by the same hand,

they are but a mere step up from the mass produced offerings of the factorys such as CVA, TC, etc.

No carving of any kind, no engraving, no personal touches what so ever, non casehardened locks, to much wood in the wrong places, etc.

Semi-Custom is ( to me ) a rifle built with no soul. If it don't speak to you its generic.

Not sure it makes sense, but some how it works in my twisted thought process.

YMMV

 

[jbrowngunmaker]

"Semi-Custom is ( to me ) a rifle built with no soul. If it don't speak to you its generic."

No Sir, it doesn't make sense. Are you saying if I don't weep, wail, blow snot, and speak in tongues over a gun, it's a "semi" custom instead of a real hand made gun? It ain't got a thing to do with whether a barrel is straight or tapered. In fact, some users of this forum are a bit obsessive compulsive about the absolute necessity of a tapered barrel. I've built many hundreds of guns and never had but one customer complain that his flats weren't tapered. Guess who! Bubba, you know just like I do, if you start with a plank of wood and some castings and make a gun out of it, it's a full custom regardless of the quality. Quality is a whole different story and is usually dependent on which forum you're on. One fact that's been learned here: Don't buy a gun and then ask for opinions on it. Bad mistake!

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Ok then,

if you start out with S&%T you end up with S&%T.

Just cause you don't get it don't make it any less so, just because you can slam it out don't make it custom, just means you slam it out, usualy the end result reflects the investment of time.

I'm not gonna split hairs with ya, you asked for my opinion and I gave it to you, sorry if you don't like it, it's not my problem.

Just my point of view.

I've built many hundreds of guns and never had but one customer complain that his flats weren't tapered.

The vast majority of buyers are ignorant of what constitutes quality in a muzzleloding rifle, they are happy as hogs in slop till somebody points out the flaws, just saying.

 

[jbrowngunmaker]

"if you start out with S&%T you end up with S&%T."

Could ya narrow that down some. If you start with a good maple plank and good quality castings, are you starting out with "s&%t"? Whether you end up with "s&%t" depends on your own ability. You fellers here wear too many halo's

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

The barrel and the lock are the heart of a gun.

as narrow as I can get it.

You fellers here wear too many halo's

I aint no Saint.

I sold one rifle since I started and regret letting it go, it could have been better but I didn't know enough then.

I built this rifle and then sold it. $490 in parts. 42" straight GM barrel and case hardened lg Siler flint. I sold it to cheap

I started another rifle for a gent and realized my heart wasn't in it so I gave him his down payment back ( it was to be a $2200.00 rifle )

When I am finished building for the clan I will return to building on speculation alone.

 

[tg]

"I would agree with you except that the original poster has been a member of these forums for the last 8 years, thats along time to remain oblivious to some basic points of interest when shelling out copious amounts of cash for a semi-custom muzzleloader"

I was more refering to the whole lack of information associated with ,many bulders in genral not any particular instance, in many trdaes or buisnesses this a person or persons doing such buisness practices would not last very long at all, but in the ML world there seems to be an inert kind of trust among brothers so to speak which has been taken advantage of qite severely in some cases and a huge follwoing of uninformed folks giving glowing references about that of which they know little only fuels the fire, I do think that post like this as controversial as they may be could have a positive effect in the long run as more and more facts about some things come to the front, at least I hope fewer peole will find some very unsettling facts about their purchase after opening the box, as many beginners simply trust the builder completely to disclose any and all things that may be of importace, I cannot recall who it is but one forum member advises against letting the builder be the main source for picking out the correct details on any gun, and advising as to the PC/HC level of their product, things may get better and that is what we all want I should think.

 

[tg]

"You fellers here wear too many halo's"

Some just prefer the look over horns :grin:

 

[Mike Brooks]

"You fellers here wear too many halo's"

Some just prefer the look over horns :grin:

I gave up and just settled for the horns. :haha:

 

[Birdwatcher]

I would agree with you except that the original poster has been a member of these forums for the last 8 years, thats along time to remain oblivious to some basic points of interest when shelling out copious amounts of cash for a semi-custom muzzleloader.

In all that time (and it was sometimes years between logins) I'm recalling lots of "the folks at TVM are great folks"

and nary a....


"Be careful 'cause they'll sell ya a straight taper barrel without saying a peep"

Mostly folks, like me, are blindsided by this news, others ain't familiar enough with the question to care.

OK, would YOU sell a gun without specifying the taper of the barrel? Yes or no?

(..or go ahead and ridicule me again and prove a point :grin: )

Birdwatcher

 

[Birdwatcher]

Would you or someone please explain to me what a semi custom guns is. I keep seeing that term. What is the difference in custom and semi custom?

The way I percieve it is...

Semi custom is like what TVM markets as in..

"these are the guns we offer" even if they are built one at a time to customer specs.


Custom is...

"tell me what ya want and I'll build it"

or...

"look I built this early-period-something-or-other in such-and-such a style" and here it is for sale on my website.

By that definition, maybe the justifiably vaunted Type G is a semi custon.

JMHO,
Birdwatcher

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

I see the point you are making and do agree, poor business practices would normaly close an individual down, whereas in the muzzleloading comunity we do not have enough comunication amongst ourselves to weed out the unscruplous interlopers, and the general buying public doesn't know enough about the product to make informed decisions

 

[tg]

Dig a hole for a man and he may bury his garbage, give a man a shovel and teach him to dig and he will likley dig a custom hole and bury himself.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

OK, would YOU sell a gun without specifying the taper of the barrel? Yes or no?

I deal with the general public every working day through the business that I own and operate.

First off I do not build to a specific customers wants, most just don't know what they want. I build on speculation, I speculate that somebody is gonna want one of my rifles more than I do.

So no I would not sell a rifle without full disclosure of the parts involved, when the perspective client asks what the barrel is I'm gonna tell them.

Yup I looked at your history, my comment about your time on the forum was a bit over the top, but I will stand by my earlier statement that an Informed buyer is the best customer.

 

[nc_cooter]

Having no rooster in this fight, I do have some "personal observations" to put forth.
I joined this forum to learn about traditional muzzle loaders. I was interested in the Kings Mountain area of the Carolinas, 1770's to 1780's time period.
The only decisions I had made were early Lancaster and .54cal. My wife and I had an interest in participating in local living history, so I wanted the rifle to be reasonably HC/PC for the time and area.
I asked questions here and read a lot of posts. With what I learned here, and more personal research, I decided on a .54cal Dickert style with a 42" swamped barrel. As a personal preference, no carving, no engraving and patch box. Just plain and simple.(no soul)
With only about $1200 to invest in this onetime purchase, I asked for input here.
The top replies were: save more for a custom, TVM, Chambers kit and Tip Curtis. After more searches here and other sites and calling each company, I chose a J. Dickert style in the white from Tip Curtis. The gun was delivered as ordered,no problems with quality or workmanship. I didn't screw up the finishing so I own a very nice rifle for a reasonable investment of time and money.
Do your research, ask questions, get opinions, talk to vendors. Make your choice, pick a vendor and place an order. Be specific on what you want/expect when placing an order. Vendors may or may not offer alternate suggestions on parts or styles.
If you recieve what you ordered and find out later that better options were available, that is on you. If there are problems with the quality of parts or workmanship, hopefully the vendor will step up and correct them.
Every time one of these discussions start, I can usually find tidbits of good info. Unfortunately you have to sift through a lot of manure first. But that's just life in general.
Mike

 

[Birdwatcher]

in the ML world there seems to be an inert kind of trust among brothers so to speak

That was my perception, and among most folks I'd say this really exists. I recieved from and then actually drove to TVM the very next month to get it fixed with that exact same mindset.

A fundamental error common to everyone, me included, is that we tend to think other folks think the same way that we ourselves do.

Birdwatcher

 

[nc_cooter]

There are some makers/vendors that I personally would not own one of their products if it was free. It has nothing to with quality of the product or their knowledge. This is based entirely on attitude, theirs' and mine.
Mike

 

[Birdwatcher]

I will stand by my earlier statement that an Informed buyer is the best customer.

Me, I love to teach; buy anything off of me and you'll leave knowing more about the issue than you did at the start, maybe even I'll talk you out of buying it and steer you elsewhere to something better.

Thats the way I interpret the above statement.

Part of my job involves recruiting for a magnet high school and I deal extensively with that issue every year. Get the top kids to attend and they make the whole school look better, but often they'd really be better served by one of our competitors.

Really nice work BTW.

Birdwatcher