Problems with TVM fowler vent.

[jbrowngunmaker]

:thumbsup:

 

[jbrowngunmaker]

:surrender: :bow:

 

[smoothy]

I don't know if anybody noticed, but the original post started out with a stainless steel liner. Now a lot of people responded with fixes. I don't see a problem having a ss liner if that is what you want. There have been other strings of a post on this subject and a lot of folks felt they were OK, excepting it as HC/PC. Splitting hairs, but there weren't too many ss liners with screw driver slots back in the day. Now somehow this string of posts has gotten into HC/PC issues. Who is to draw the line here? I say it is up to the one making the purchase. If it is OK with him, why not? Maybe the purchaser will be more educated later on what he wants and what is HC/PC. Then he may choose to buy a gun more "authentic" later. Many have gone this route. And it is is a good thing to let people know what they have learned from our journey. But...you can lead a horse to water, but.........
I don't know if we have gone full circle on this subject, yet. There have been many good and valid points made here from all sorts of angles. Maybe there is a lot more to be made. Maybe I'm talking circles now.

 

[buzp]

When I wanted to buy a southern mountain rifle, I looked at several custom makers and found that for about $3500 or more I could have a very nice period correct firearm. I did not want to spend that much, so I looked at TVM and found that for about $1100 I could have a rifle that was not an exact copy of any particular rifle, but was close enough to meet my needs and purposes. I chose the TVM knowing what I would get. The folks at TVM were very helpful and answered all of my questions regarding barrel selection and other options. I was more than pleased when the rifle arrived and the quality exceeded my expectations.

I think that if the original poster really wants a period and historically correct firearm, he could easily look at the web sites of several custom makers and find that it would cost three times or more what he paid for the TVM. I don't think you are going to find a truly HC firearm being build anywhere for the price he paid for his TVM.

 

[tg]

It is a bit more complex than those who believe that non disclosure of something that is an industry standard is ok and a vaid honest practice and all the responsibility fals upon the buyer I was in a position of sales mgr and production mgr for 25 yeras in construction and it was and is parmount to mke as much klown about ones product and installation methods as possible so that a customer of which most are not up to par on many aspects of the trade can make an informed choice based on being able to compare apples and apples, I have seen many companies leave out many small details that end up being extra charges when hre job commences, nearly always these items could/shopuld have been mentioned up front, I often fopunsd customers questioning certain line items on my estimates and had no ides what I was refering to, had I not explaioned the what and why of these and the customer went with such a shoddy bid they would have fond a condsiderable overrun on the budget after the contract was signed, I cannot believe how many people actually claim to believe that this is a valid and honest buisness practice, it takes very little time to disclose the whole scope of the work and the materials and methods used on the job, and as mentiod before here is only on reason for not telling a customer that they are getting #2 roofing or siding, or a gun part not up to the standard of the industry as a whole, and this is not about the quality or suitability of said parts for safety or asthetics just a disclosure so that a customer can make an accurate comparison between the various sources that are available and no one can expect newcommers to be aware of all that is needed to do this or even research all the possibilites at such an ealy stage in their ML journey, it is truely saddening if pepkle realy feel that the customer bears the brunt of the responsibility here as well as the glowing recomendations which also leave out much of the detail needed to make a valid comparison, this can only be due to some very weak understanding of these guns by those giving the positive recomendations, as I cannot bring myself to believe that fellow ML shooters would purposely withhold pertinent information from others who are not experienced enough to kn ow what questions to ask as they would have no motive for such behaivior.

 

[Rifleman1776]

industry standard

????industry standard???
While the custom building of muzzle loading guns reminiscent of what was used aproximately 200 years ago, more or less, might be popular, I'm not sure it ranks up there as an "industry". Except for the likes of TC, CVA and a few overseas exporters, calling home shop or small business part of an "industry" is a real stretch. They make what they make and buyers buy what they make with no one forcing "standards" on them. In fact, doesn't the making of something "custom" automatically remove it from the parameters imagined by persons not involved in the transaction as being 'authentic'? Just something to think about.

 

[jbrowngunmaker]

:wink: You shine, Frank

 

[hanshi]

I'm sure TVM would take issue with your "semi custom" description. They build guns the same way I do, one at a time,to the customer's specs, nothing semi custom about that.[/quote]

:thumbsup: :hatsoff: :v

 

[hanshi]

This IS loads of fun!

 

[jbrowngunmaker]

:applause:

 

[tg]

The term industry standard is just a way of identifying what is generaly accepted as the norm and what one would expect when buying a product, I have never seen so many greasey turds trying to slip out of the same tight hole at the same time in my life, I truely hope that all newcomers steer as far from this forum as possible so they might get a fair shake when asking for references about various products.to blame the guys who know little and get burned by taking advise from those who project that they know something about the product is just wrong no matter how you let it twist in the wind on a crooked pole, enjoy the hobby gentlemen, I hope you all get only solid information should you delve into an unknown territory, I thougt part of being here was to help guide others in a positive direction and being upfront with all information even if it might be a deal breaker, kinda reminds me of the old song "the day the music died"

 

[hanshi]

Somebody needs a hug. :wink:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Somebody needs a hug. :wink:

I know how he feels, been there. I think he's tired of beating his head against the wall. The internet is a strange place, those with the most experience and knowledge are usually ridiculed by those that have little experience.

 

[tg]

". I think he's tired of beating his head against the wall"

You are absolutely right Mike, I would love to start using someone elses head

 

[colmoultrie]

I would agree with you except that the original poster has been a member of these forums for the last 8 years, thats along time to remain oblivious to some basic points of interest when shelling out copious amounts of cash for a semi-custom muzzleloader.

In all that time (and it was sometimes years between logins) I'm recalling lots of "the folks at TVM are great folks"

and nary a....


"Be careful 'cause they'll sell ya a straight taper barrel without saying a peep"

Mostly folks, like me, are blindsided by this news, others ain't familiar enough with the question to care.

OK, would YOU sell a gun without specifying the taper of the barrel? Yes or no?

(..or go ahead and ridicule me again and prove a point :grin: )

Birdwatcher

Perhaps it is because many of the TVM guns sold and shown here have been rifles with octagonal barrels. The difference between straight octagonal and swamped barrels has come up numerous times, so perhaps it might be a natural assumption to ask whether a barrel is straight or tapered - or perhaps not. I own one pistol kit from TVM that a friend put together for me, and I'm happy with how it came out, but I can't speak for others.

There are many people here on the forum who are shooters, not reenactors, and they are perfectly happy with their guns and say so. If others agree or disagree with their statements, based on pictures, then that is what makes a horse race.

If you buy a rifle from the House brothers, are you going to complain if they haven't told you up front that you won't be able to do strictly juried events with that rifle, because the Woodbury school never existed in history? I don't know if they tell their customers up front that their rifles are works of art, not historically correct pieces, or not, but I hope you take my meaning.

I am sorry your experience has been less than you'd hoped, but I think that unless you specified that you wanted the fowler to be historically correct for a specific time/place and were as specific as possible in your choices, there appears to be a bit too much piling on.

 

[hanshi]

You are absolutely right Mike, I would love to start using someone elses head[/quote]

It does help. For decades I was able to do just that!

 

[smoothy]

TG
I see two distinct issues here.
1. Those that are less serious about HC/PC guns, but still want to join in. And because they are less serious they are willing to pay less for something that is close, but no cigar. They may become more serious as time goes on, especially if they get in with the serious crowd.
2. Those that are serious about the sport and want the absolute most HC/PC gun their money will allow.
I don't see anything wrong with being in either crowd. But if trying to inform every one and trying to fit them in the serious crowd, you may not get the ear of all.
Now, I believe I'm a "tweener". Neither in the casual crowd or the serious crowd. My guns were made by myself, so I only have myself to blame for not making them totally HC/PC. I wish my Siler lock on my southern mountain rifle was on my colonial fowler. And I wish that my Durs Egg lock on my colonial fowler was on my southern mountain rifle. Too late. If I had the counsel of some of the experts back in the '80s and 90's this may not have happened.
Please, if you are an expert keep informing us of lesser knowlege on the subject. Just don't expect all to fall in line. That's all I'm trying to say. It can be done in a positive manner and doesn't require the "dramatics". Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it does go along the lines of this thread to this point.

 

[Billnpatti]

Chambers makes their flash hole undersized because target shooters want a small hole for more consistant chamber pressures. The hole as it comes from Chambers will almost always be too small for anyone other than target shooters and will have to be enlarged slightly. While the location of the hole is a bit higher than I like, enlarging it a small bit should solve your problem.

Another member suggested coning the hole with a countersink bit and that, too, will help with ignition problems. Do not use an electric drill to operate the countersink or you will surely over do it and/or leave bad chatter marks. Hold the countersink with your fingers and rotate it just until you have formed a cone that goes just into the vent hole. Dremmel makes a griding stone that you can use to cone the vent hole but use your fingers to turn it in the hole just until you have formed a nice cone in the hole.

 

[tg]

It has nothing to do with PC/HC or what oparts are cosideerd right or wrong just the curtousy of disclosuer of the information required to make an imtelligent choice when comparing the barious suppliers/builders products nearly anyone ordering a fowler even if not interestd in pc/HC would probably excpect a barrel with a taper just from the photos shown and general chat about guns so what on earth could be a problem by mentioning that a particular makers barrel is differnt from what is considerd to be the norm or standard . we all know the answer but most refuse to say it, that Riover in Africa is a long one and I have had enough of this foolishness as it has been spun so far and fast that you could weave a capote out of it and it has definately opened my eyes to the general mindset of the forum about having an open and honest approach to dealing with customers, enjoy the journey guys, I believe you all to be in fine company.

 

[Birdwatcher]

I am sorry your experience has been less than you'd hoped, but I think that unless you specified that you wanted the fowler to be historically correct for a specific time/place and were as specific as possible in your choices, there appears to be a bit too much piling on.

If it were simply something as basic as a butt plate more appropriate to a late 18th early 19th Century rifle (as one builder pm'd me), I'd be inclined to agree. In fact I WAS inclined to agree... until I started actively using the piece.

Barrel profile has a profound effect on the handling of most ANY firearm that it is inexcusable not to mention it, this even applies to barrels as short as the heavy, full-length underlug 3" barrel on my S&W Model 60... let alone the heavy 42" barrel on my TVM.

I didn't just say "build me a fowler", I specified fittings, wood, lock and sideplate. NONE of the experienced shooters who recommended this company (and there were several), knew to specify the barrel taper. For a company to not mention this what one can only assume is consideration of their own cost and market share is inexcusable.

Hopefully what will happen is folks will read this thread and others like it, and enough folks will know to watch for that, such that the market will take another incremental step for the better.

Birdwatcher