Projectiles

[Rifleman1776]

Congrats. Nice animal. Some kind of goat? And, your country looks beautiful.

 

[Dphar]

Hi There Martin form New Zealand. I have recently acquired a Pederzoli Kentucky long rifle in 45 cal. My question is am I limited to round ball due to what I assume is a very slow twist 1/64? or can I shoot greatplains bulletts or saboted bullets?

Your help will be appreciated.
Marty

You will be happier with the patched RB this is what the barrel is designed. In a twist this slow anything but a hollow base Minie type bullet will be unstable and even the Minie if used for hunting will often not penetrate in a straight line. Something that was first discovered by the British in the Crimean War. The round ball is a far better projectile than many will admit. It will give adequate penetration and if sized properly for the game has reliably taken any game on the planet. A 45 RB is sufficient for deer to the size of the Mule Deer of the western United States. Its also adequate for black bear unless very large. But as with ALL hunting arms it must be used within its limits. A long bow is not a 200 yard hunting tool and neither is a traditional kentucky rifle.
For general shooting the RB easier on the rifle and the shooter than the various conicals.

Dan

 

[mooman76]

Is there a specific reason you want to use a projectile other than RBs? I know when I was in Utah a 45 RB did not have enough weight for hunting large game so if I was to us my 45 Kentucky, I needed to us a conical. If you are to find one that would work more than likely it will need to be a short one. The longer ones won't likely stabilize in that twist. A minie would likely stabilize better because the weight is farther forward.

 

[Dphar]

Long ago I played a fair bit with elongate bullets in slow twists such as yours (in my case both 50 and 54 calibers). Two guns only prove a little, but the lessons certainly affected my outlook.

---At 50 yards, groups were terrible until I got into very hot loads. With charges (and recoil) elevated to the point I was getting really uncomfortable, group sizes finally shrank into the 3"-4" size range.

---Moving back to 100 yards with the same hot loads, I couldn't consistently keep three shots on a 10" x 10" target paper.

---Shorter and lighter bullets performed better than longer, and the longer the bullet the larger the charge that was needed.

My guess is that the elongate bullets needed the high velocities to stabilize, but at my limits only did so marginally. With lower velocities (whether smaller charges or velocity loss with distance), they were notably less stable and tended to wander.

One rule for the cloth patched picket bullet is that a round ball load for the same rifle is 3/5th of the picket bullet load. When I stopped shooting my picket bullet test gun due to a mainspring failure I was up to 80 gr in a 40 caliber. This was the best load to that time. Its a 48 twist. If one is obsessed with shooting conicals than the twist needed to be significantly faster for best results. Something in the realm of 30-36".
To expand on this somewhat;

Even with a 48 twist a 2 caliber long or slightly less bullet, which is supposed to work in that twist, will be unstable when striking game. The failures of the Maxi-Ball in hunting resulted in the "Maxi-Hunter". This instability can result in the bullet not striking the internal organs aimed at. But "moderns" are convinced that one has to have an elongated bullet to be useful. This is largely due to ignorance on gun magazine propaganda. Nor is a double ball the answer. One ball in the right place is all that is needed. The double ball load really accomplishes nothing other than kicking harder. If one needs more killing power then the ball needs to be larger.
Rifling form can also be a factor in trying to shoot conicals in MLs designed for the cloth patch.
Dan

 

[DrahthaarNZ]

Thanks Guys , to answer the question, the reason I was looking at something other than round ball was due to terminal performance on game. But if you are saying this is fine with RB then I will continue down this path. Working up loads this weekend.
I will start at 45grain and work up as suggested. The powder I have been supplied is fffg Hogden. When should I stop working up? Of course I will stop when I get that sweet spot of accuracy however I want to make sure I keep away from maximum.
Cheers for all your help Marty

 

[Zonie]

Although the Lyman BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK & LOADING MANUAL shows powder loads for a .45 shooting a patched roundball up to 120 grains I consider 90 grains of 3Fg powder to be about the max.

At 90 grains of 3Fg under a patched .440 ball the breech pressures Lyman got were 16,200 psi.

As others have said, 100 yards is about the max distance a .440 roundball should be used at on game animals. IMO, something around 80 yards is a better max.
These .440 diameter balls run out of power much beyond that.

 

[Billnpatti]

I would expect that you could stop when you reach 2 times your caliber. So, I would expect that you will find the sweet spot before reaching 90 grains of 3f powder. I see no reason to go beyond 90 grains and that should not be anywhere near exceeding the maximum safe load for your gun.

Oops :redface: I did it again. Answered before reading all of the answers. Sorry for stepping on your toes....again, Zonie. But, it just goes to show that we often think alike.

 

[DrahthaarNZ]

Thanks Guys.

I had limited time last night. So I started at 65 grains 3 shot groups and moved up in 5 grain steps till 80 grains. The tightest group was 65 grains. With the groups just getting more and more open and we went. I suspect that the best group will be below 65 as this was about 3" at 30 yards.
I will now start again at 65 grains and work down.

Thanks Marty

 

[BrownBear]

Did you recover the patches from your shots with larger charges? Often as charge/pressure goes up you can fall into the land of patch failure with material that's just fine at lower levels.

If in fact patches with those hotter loads were holed, torn or shredded, a change in patch material and/or lubricant will allow you to use higher charges with no loss in accuracy.

Only an issue if you're trying to sustain higher velocities for flatter trajectories.

 

[rr11]

Work up your loads until you find the sweet spot. In my .54 Longhammock barrel that was 75gr. Take your time shoot a lot and enjoy the rifle. Don't over think this, as with all rifles shot placement is the most important. Putting the ball where you aim is more important than a little extra FPS.

 

[Monty369]

Try some R.E.A.L. bullets from Lee. They cast easily and load even easier with a small smeer of lube.....

 

[longcruise]

Brown bear, that's why I start load testing by testing various patch materials and ball sizes with max charges. Don't even look at groups, just fired patches. Once the best "survivor" is identified, then begins the search for the best load.

And, that is if I even bother with "load development"! Often I simply pick a sufficient charge for the guns intended purpose. For my favorite target/match .45, I simply chose 45 gr of Scheutzen 3f and adjusted the sights. I'm usually in the top 1/3 in most events and doubt that would change with a comprehensive load devel regimen.

when reading about other members load deve programs one usually see's three or four targets with three or four shot groups. That amount of shooting easily allows a group fired with a poor accuracy load to randomly show on a single target as the best load.