Proper seating of ball and patch

[HistoryBuff]

I am new to muzzleloading and have just purchased a Traditions Hawken flintlock. The only thing close to real black powder I could find was Goex FFFg black powder substitute. No FFFFg for priming. The sales clerk told me to simply grind some of the 3f powder, which I did, not knowing any better at the time. I didn't die.

I then took it to a public range where I could get some instruction on proper loading.

Trouble started immediately. First, the gentleman who was kind enough to help told me, in no uncertain terms, how stupid I was for grinding the powder. He then proceeded to load the first shot for me while I watched. I fired and the ignition time was horrible with my fine ground BP substitute. Second shot was much the same. The third shot took 10 minutes to fire. I also had trouble loading since the patches were of .018" thickness. I gave up and left the range for the day and went in search of proper powder. I found one place here in Middle Tennessee (in Hendersonville) which sells real black powder and I was able to obtain a can of FFg and a can of FFFFg.

Here is my dilemma: I have yet to load the rifle myself. I understand that having an air pocket between the projectile and powder is extemely dangerous, which makes a lot of sense. How do I know when I have properly seated the ball/patch when the rod is not going down the barrel easily in the first place? I also don't want to hammer the rod down the barrel because I believe that such an action could cause a discharge. I don't want to lose hands, face or life doing this. I just want to have some good, safe fun. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Worried in Tennessee

 

[pepperbelly]

I would like to hear the answer to this myself. I have a percussion T/C hawken that I have yet to load.
Jim

 

[Dave Poss]

Okay, I'll take a shot at this...no pun intended. first off.... taking it one step at a time...You don't need 130grs. of powder to make the rifle function. Recoil is tremendous and most of the powder would go unburned out the end of the barrel. Start off with 50 grs. Nver pour directly from the can; use a separate measure. Pour the 50 or so grs, down the barrel. Lube your patch with a storebought lube or spit. don't saturate as this will soak into the powder and degrade it. now seat the patch on the end of the barrel and place the ball on it. If you are useing precut patches , center the ball as close as possible on the patch. If you are cutting your patch at the barrel, use a short starter to push the ball and patch to where the top of the ball is level with the barrel.Now useing a sharpe knife cut the patch even with the barrel. (if useing precut s this step is not necessary.) after the patch is cut use the short starter again and push the ball and patch down the barrel. Most short starters are about 5 or 6 inches long. now take your long ramrod and push the ball and patch all the way down the barrel until it rests on the powder. You can "bounce" the ramrod on the ball to make certain it is seated well. This is alittle more difficult if you are useing the TC ramrod that comes with the rifle , as it is short and doesn't give you much room to place your hand on it. it's really difficult to "over compress" using a stock TC ramrod. Over compressing will NOT cause the gun to discharge. all it does is flatten the ball which could affect accuracy. once you are confident that the ball is seated, you could mark your ramrod with a pen or paint. Do this with the ramrod down the barrel resting on the ball and mark the rod even with the top of the muzzle. From then on, every time you load , you can look at the mark and know the ball is seated. Now your gun is loaded and it's time to prime the lock. hold the gun pointed downrange and cock the hammer (finger no where near the trigger!!) ...put just alittle of your 4f in the pan. It doesn't take much. the idea is for the spark to jump through the touchhole..not burn it's way through. make sure you do not cover your touchhole with powder, all that will do is give you a fuse type effect. close the frizzen, raise the gun, set the trigger, aim....B A N G ! big puff of smoke and by golly you did it!!!!! I appreciate your caution . Too many people think they know it all and end up hurting themselves or someone else because they were too macho to ask questions. after a few shots, you'll get the feel of seating the ball and won't even look at your ramrod mark. One last thing, don't scribe your ramrod with your knife. This weakens the rod where you cut it and could lead to it breaking and causing serious damage to your hand. I'm sure others will comment also on this topic with more advice. Let us know how it goes. eace:

 

[cptleo1]

Nathan,
Here is some good reading.

http://members.aye.net/~bspen/flintlockfaq.html
http://www.blackpowderjournal.com/vol2no2/articles/bpj22-6.html
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/
http://mamaflinter.tripod.com/id9.html
http://www.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?...faqs/tuning.htm
http://www.midcoast.com/~adolglen/theflintlock/
http://blackpowderhunting.org/flint1.htm#top

Go slow, Ask questions, Have fun :thumbsup:

The Lyman Black Powder Handbook is also a good source of info.

If you did not get instructions with your rifle PLEASE go the maker's web site and get any info they offer.

 

[Old Charlie]

By the way Goex 3f is real black powder and shoots better in my flintlocks than 2f. I use 2f in my shotgun. I can see no difference in priming with 3f than with 4f. Have fun!
Old Charlie

 

[Pork Chop]

I am a true neophyte and have not shot a flint, so I could be so far out in left field that I am actually in the parking lot, but here goes. Did you clean the gun well? If the rifle was new, there could be some crud in the base of the barrel and the fouling from the first two shots could have ended up making the third shot the slow fire that it was. Just thinking logically there.

I would follow what these guys are saying first. They have a clue - Vanna won't sell me one...

 

[ndbilly]

In addition to the excellent advice above and following up on the comment about the possibility of factory fouling in a new barrel, you may wish to swab the bore between shots if you're going to do a long session at the range. Run a patch of whatever lubricant you're using (moistened, not soaked) down the bore and follow that with a clean patch and she should load as easily the tenth time as the first.

Welcome to the ranks. Give BP a chance and you'll soon be relegating your centerfires to the back of the gun safe or, as some have done, the auction block.

 

[Redleg130th]

Longknife pretty much said it - but I have always bounced the ramrod to verify ball to powder contact (using steel rammers, if yours is wood I dunno if this would work). It "thuds" differently where there is no airspace. I can see no danger of discharge doing this.

 

[connerm]

Try a thinner patch until you get a handle on the steps involved. There should be no reason to hammer the ball into the barrel. Always prick your flash hole after you load.

 

[HistoryBuff]

Thanks for the advice. I will try some thinner patches this weekend.

This forum is really informative. One of the best of any kind I've seen. People are polite. Most forums can't go three posts without somebody getting called a Nazi or a stupid American, regardless of original topic. I'll be hanging around for a while.

Thanks,
HistoryBuff

 

[Stumpkiller]

Vee have vays of dealing vith zose who behave badly.

 

[vradin]

Okay, I'll take a shot at this...no pun intended. first off.... <<Lots of EXCELLENT stuff snipped>>

I'm sure others will comment also on this topic with more advice. Let us know how it goes. eace:

Mr Longknife let slip just a couple of things that IMO maybe should be added- 1. Never, ever seat the ball with your palm over the ramrod. and 2. for powder it's can to flask or horn to measure to barrel. Around here we have a name for them who pours direct from flask to barrel - lefty.

Other than that- you can safely bounce a wood rod- when you think the ball is seated, take the rod about 10 inches or so out of the barrel and throw it down with a sharp snap. If there's no where else for the ball to go the rod will bounce back. Get a nice throw, and the rod bounces all the way out and if you want to show off for the ladies, catch it in midair back into the holder. This works well with wood and composite rods, but some of the heavier brass rods will NOT bounce as easily but deform the ball and there's a slim possibility of jamming the ball in the barrel.


vic

 

[bob1961]

i've drilled a hole in my short starter just big enough to fit over my ram rod....

then i drilled a pilot hole for a ball puller and stuck it in the ball of the starter....

and now i have someting to grab for pulling a ball that was stuffed before the powder....did i say that out loud....anyway it works pretty good if i have to say so myself...............bob

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

You should be able to prime your fire lock with the cock in the half cock position rather than the full cock notch.
Also, it is best to avoid petroleum based lubricants when using black powder as they will make an unholy mess in your barrel when mixed with black powder residue. Been there.

 

[HistoryBuff]

I went to the range this weekend. Had a blast. I didn't get a chance to pick up some thinner patches so I went with the .018" patches again. It was still dificult, but I got the hang of it. I see what you guys mean now by bouncing the rod when the ball and patch is completely seated. Also, priming with the 4f powder resulted no misfires. Lit it up every time with virtually no delay. I have discovered the secret to flintlock muzzleloaders: CLEANING and LUBRICATION! Known to anybody who shoots anything, but these rifles are especially sensitive.

Thanks again,
HistoryBuff

 

[roundball]

I went to the range this weekend. Had a blast. I didn't get a chance to pick up some thinner patches so I went with the .018" patches again. It was still dificult, but I got the hang of it. I see what you guys mean now by bouncing the rod when the ball and patch is completely seated. Also, priming with the 4f powder resulted no misfires. Lit it up every time with virtually no delay. I have discovered the secret to flintlock muzzleloaders: CLEANING and LUBRICATION! Known to anybody who shoots anything, but these rifles are especially sensitive.

Thanks again,
HistoryBuff

=========================================================
Sounds like you're on your way...actually there are alternatives to "bouncing a ramrod on a ball" to see if it's fully seated, and one in particular provides other significant safety benefits as well...just mark your ramrod.

Decide on whatever load it is that you're going to use on a particular trip to the range, get that first one properly loaded, then just wrap a piece of electrical tape around the ramrod flush with the muzzle.

Then every time thereafter, the tape should stop in the exact same spot each time...the other benefits are that if the tape partially disappears down into the muzzle, it'll tell you that you forgot to put in powder or even the ball.

Conversely, if the tape mark stops high above the muzzle, it'll indicate that you've accidently put in a double charge of powder, or two balls, so you'll know to pull the load and start again.

The benefit of using tape instead of making a mark on the ramrod is that you can remove the tape if you use a different load the next time, and reposition it for each different load.

PS: Another alternative to knowing if the ball is seated on the powder is that you can feel the powder compress and hear it crunch when it does.

 

Lit it up every time with virtually no delay. I have discovered the secret to flintlock muzzleloaders:
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OHHHHHH you have much to learn grasshopper LMAO

but thats a good start its really about doing your part , keeping your new girl glean and her rocks sharp.
something here im surprised about that no one mentioned and thats grinding powder .
lots of us do it and at some time you may need or feel again that you have to ,,, this can be done just do it safely . dont do it on carpet or use any metal items.
I use a small wood bowl and wood mortise that I made for grinding ,,, I have also used 2 round balls in a film canister in a pinch .
Just remember don

 

[doc623]

A lot of good information has been given.
One other thing - I may have missed it and someone has already given it - referring to marking the ramrod by what ever means is a good idea and I take it a step further or first (in this case) and that is to mark the rod that sticks out of the muzzle when the rifle is EMPTY. do this first and you will always have the same starting point and know that the barrel is empty.
Just another .02 worth.

 

[connerm]

My friend always throws his ramrod until it bounces. I think it unnecessarily deforms the ball. We used co2 to discharge his rifle and not only was the ball deformed, but the powder was packed so tight, it came out in one long tube - looked like those powder pellets.

I always measure powder carefully and press the ball down evenly. I can tell when the ball is seated properly when I hear/feel the chunching stop. Know what I'm talking about?

 

50% of accuracy is in the loading of the projectile - A very big part of that is doing it exactly the same EVERY time.