Barrel length and velocity of patched balls

[Gordoncourtney]

Simulators are great. But there is no replacement for a well thought out experiment and real data.

Barrel Length
Coming back again the Swiss designed the Feldstutzer in 1851 to be the best military rifle at the cutting edge 10.4mm bore and 31” barrel !!!!!!!!!! It’s on utube by our handsome Hungarian so I won’t drone on of its merits. I do have one ha ha. Could not resist bidding on it, although not as handsome as out Hungarian friend, one cannot have everything[. Not only a swiss military rifle but greatly used as a hunting rifle










QUOTE="Schaefer, post: 2553565, member: 63529"]
Simulators are great. But there is no replacement for a well thought out experiment and real data.
[/QUOTE]

 

[westrayer]

My understanding has been that longer barrels allow burning of more powder. While I like the Lyman Deerstalkers, I have found d that there is a limit to what gets burned and how much is pushed out the muzzle. I have not tried running loads over a chrono but I do know that my impact change from 50 to 100 yards tells me that the 32" Green Mou tain barrel on the Renegade has less drop.
Not very scientific but I can't argue with the results.

 

[longcruise]

My understanding has been that longer barrels allow burning of more powder. While I like the Lyman Deerstalkers, I have found d that there is a limit to what gets burned and how much is pushed out the muzzle. I have not tried running loads over a chrono but I do know that my impact change from 50 to 100 yards tells me that the 32" Green Mou tain barrel on the Renegade has less drop.
Not very scientific but I can't argue with the results.

I think that is the conventional wisdom on barrel length and is pretty much agreed upon.....but I have a problem (see my signature line)

I'm certain that the powder charge ignites and burns near instantly. That leaves the ever increasing velocity to be explained by the forces of expanding gasses continuing to overcome the inertia of the ball and increasing the velocity until friction and air resistance overcomes the expanding gasses. But, don't ask me at what point that might happen Surely it would vary with caliber, charge, barrel length, etc. Maybe, at conventional barrel lengths, it doesn't happen!

I also think that there are two observations that have contributed to the unburned powder theory.

First is the Muzzle flash/fireball. It's certainly a real thing but my thoughts are that it is the flames, hot gasses, and glowing ash of burned powder.

And that's related to the old "shooting over snow" story that seems to be widely accepted. The belief is that if one shoots ever increasing charges over snow that eventually unburned powder will appear on the snow. My contention is that it is ash. The Mad Monk has documented that burned powder leaves a percentage of ash in the neighborhood of 45%. Some is left in the barrel (fouling) but most is blown out the Muzzle. I'm pretty sure that a carefully conducted experiment shooting over snow would show debris on the snow with even starting charges and ever increasing amounts as charges are increased.

If anyone wants to try this, now is the time of year!

I'll be equally happy to be proven right or wrong.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I think that is the conventional wisdom on barrel length and is pretty much agreed upon.....but I have a problem (see my signature line)

I'm certain that the powder charge ignites and burns near instantly. That leaves the ever increasing velocity to be explained by the forces of expanding gasses continuing to overcome the inertia of the ball and increasing the velocity until friction and air resistance overcomes the expanding gasses. But, don't ask me at what point that might happen Surely it would vary with caliber, charge, barrel length, etc. Maybe, at conventional barrel lengths, it doesn't happen!

I also think that there are two observations that have contributed to the unburned powder theory.

First is the Muzzle flash/fireball. It's certainly a real thing but my thoughts are that it is the flames, hot gasses, and glowing ash of burned powder.

And that's related to the old "shooting over snow" story that seems to be widely accepted. The belief is that if one shoots ever increasing charges over snow that eventually unburned powder will appear on the snow. My contention is that it is ash. The Mad Monk has documented that burned powder leaves a percentage of ash in the neighborhood of 45%. Some is left in the barrel (fouling) but most is blown out the Muzzle. I'm pretty sure that a carefully conducted experiment shooting over snow would show debris on the snow with even starting charges and ever increasing amounts as charges are increased.

If anyone wants to try this, now is the time of year!

I'll be equally happy to be proven right or wrong.

It does not matter if we are right or wrong it’s how we contribute to the discussion. I recently bought a percussion .577 big game rifle , photo and in 1830 the client decided on a 36” barrel. Made Aberdeen Scotland . I don’t know if it was for patched ball or bullet, Holts auction. It’s a heavy thing to carry far at 12lbs but lovely. The Swiss 11lbs

The Swiss 23 years later in 1851 decided on a new military rifle. With a new specification, see utube, the Feldstutzer , it should have a 31” barrel after much research . The Swiss is tops with set triggers , quadrant sights ,10.4 mm bore peep sight etc very sofisticated for a sniper rifle . Not fired either Incidentally the Swiss military version only had one hammer notch on the but seems I was lucky, being for a wealth private person , I assume, it had a safety notch also in the tumbler.

The Swiss came from Frau Elizabeth Hunziker Gonhardweg, Suhr according to the label, who knows

I’ll leave it with you

 

[Schaefer]

To add a little more fuel to the fire. Many years ago I found a horn that was documented to have been crafted before the 1900s. Seems to me that ML shotgun hunting was still around throughout the early 1900s. So getting a exact date on the powder that was in the horn would be hard. But I know it was pre WWII. The powder grains were cut way different from modern day powder. The cut was more like a diamond. Add to that their seemed to be a glaze or coating on the grains. Something that I have not seen on modern day powder. Again no idea when or how the coating was applied or if it was just a process of aging. I can say that the powder either burned slower or at lower pressure than modern stuff. My groups were low with the vintage stuff.

The point that I am trying to make here is while we know what early designs were. We can't be totally sure why they were long. I really like a slim long gun. 42" barrel on a sub 50 cal full stock always catches my eye. And that is enough for me.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

To add a little more fuel to the fire. Many years ago I found a horn that was documented to have been crafted before the 1900s. Seems to me that ML shotgun hunting was still around throughout the early 1900s. So getting a exact date on the powder that was in the horn would be hard. But I know it was pre WWII. The powder grains were cut way different from modern day powder. The cut was more like a diamond. Add to that their seemed to be a glaze or coating on the grains. Something that I have not seen on modern day powder. Again no idea when or how the coating was applied or if it was just a process of aging. I can say that the powder either burned slower or at lower pressure than modern stuff. My groups were low with the vintage stuff.

The point that I am trying to make here is while we know what early designs were. We can't be totally sure why they were long. I really like a slim long gun. 42" barrel on a sub 50 cal full stock always catches my eye. And that is enough for me.

My oldest long rifle was a bit of a relic and has a much later 42” barrel. The flint lock is warranted around 1820-1840 long ago I made a new walnut stock when my skills were not so good

Last year I picked up an 8 bore and had to replace the stock. The iron work and 33” barrel not so bad. Only £130 holts sealed bid auction a good one would be £600 plus

By the time of the martini , still BP thus my sporting BP martini was down to 28” barrels And there’s no argument on its performance
By 1885 28” BP barrels like double rifles etc were the norm like Westly Richards and Thomas bland , I have both

I guess in the early days no chronographs were available , so a long barrel gave the charisma of power. , I guess the terrible injuries by the brown Bess musket with its long barrel set the scene well into 1850 , only the Germans with their short Jager rifles proved a long barrel was unnecessary

Having said that the Swiss 1880 and later martini target rifled mainly had 33” barrels probably with early cordite, Must be for a longer sight line .

As I said before it’s what you love to shoot, your choice , so barrel length does not matter a hoot, But your long guns are crafted so beautiful it’s the way I would go on a flintlock

I try to buy one rifle a year at holts auction , depending how much of my pension I can save. I started when I was younger so got 25 old rifles , never shot any of them , but they make me happy. 81 in March, just an active old fart enjoying chatting with you

Sunny today west of London

 

[Schaefer]

A lot of early Germen rifle designs were less than perfect. Large bores, short barrels and fast twists forced the rifleman to use very light loads to get accuracy.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

A lot of early Germen rifle designs were less than perfect. Large bores, short barrels and fast twists forced the rifleman to use very light loads to get accuracy.

Our man on utube from Hungary

A lot of early Germen rifle designs were less than perfect. Large bores, short barrels and fast twists forced the rifleman to use very light loads to get accuracy.

Been there’s seen lots of them. I made my own with a flint Bess lock 1973 .625 bore last two photos

I was contemplating this German percussion. Not quite a Jager , it’s buyers choice. First photo. I did not like the heavy 16bore rifle, probably Swiss, second photo. No barrel length given. See holts uk auction coming up.

A GERMAN 20-BORE PERCUSSION SPORTING or TARGET RIFLE SIGNED ANTON BURCKHARDT, WEIMAR, no visible serial number,
possibly converted from flintlock with octagonal slightly swamped blued barrel signed on the top of breech-block 'ANTON BURCKHARDT IN WEIMAR', the top-flat of the barrel inlaid in silver 'CANON CORDU', white metal fore-sight, standing notch rear-sight with carved and pierced foot, plain border engraved lock of flint form signed 'ANTON BURCKHARDT IN WEIMAR', figured walnut full-stock with carved and raised cheek-piece, skip-chequered panels to wrist and fore-end detailed with white metal pins, moulded and carved horn heel-plate and patch-box cover, escutcheoned square socket at wrist for a peep-sight (absent), carved lions-mask forming the ramrod throat, double set triggers with moulded and carved horn tang and guard, the finial formed as a boar's head with an oak-leaf sprig, nickel ramrod pipes with engraved raised bands, iron ramrod and stirrup and button swivels



Please click HERE to view Terms & Conditions. Please note all Lots are listed in accordance with UK Law, for overseas buyers, please ensure you are familiar with your relevant local firearms and customs regulations before bidding.

Estimate £400-600

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Our man on utube from Hungary

Been there’s seen lots of them. I made my own with a flint Bess lock 1973 .625 bore last two photos

I was contemplating this German percussion. Not quite a Jager , it’s buyers choice. First photo. I did not like the heavy 16bore rifle, probably Swiss, second photo. No barrel length given. See holts uk auction coming up.

A GERMAN 20-BORE PERCUSSION SPORTING or TARGET RIFLE SIGNED ANTON BURCKHARDT, WEIMAR, no visible serial number,
possibly converted from flintlock with octagonal slightly swamped blued barrel signed on the top of breech-block 'ANTON BURCKHARDT IN WEIMAR', the top-flat of the barrel inlaid in silver 'CANON CORDU', white metal fore-sight, standing notch rear-sight with carved and pierced foot, plain border engraved lock of flint form signed 'ANTON BURCKHARDT IN WEIMAR', figured walnut full-stock with carved and raised cheek-piece, skip-chequered panels to wrist and fore-end detailed with white metal pins, moulded and carved horn heel-plate and patch-box cover, escutcheoned square socket at wrist for a peep-sight (absent), carved lions-mask forming the ramrod throat, double set triggers with moulded and carved horn tang and guard, the finial formed as a boar's head with an oak-leaf sprig, nickel ramrod pipes with engraved raised bands, iron ramrod and stirrup and button swivels



Please click HERE to view Terms & Conditions. Please note all Lots are listed in accordance with UK Law, for overseas buyers, please ensure you are familiar with your relevant local firearms and customs regulations before bidding.

Estimate £400-600

Ps Acid cleaning 12 bore cape Ml barrels , very rusty third attempt at cleaning

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I still don’t like this Swiss ml but studying the thumbnails what a beautiful made rifle , of course it would be its Swiss the wood fantastic

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I still don’t like this Swiss ml but studying the thumbnails what a beautiful made rifle , of course it would be its Swiss the wood fantastic

A theory by a. Very gunny gentleman. Military of course

I suspect that long barrels were a way of getting good ballistics even if the powder was a bit suspect. The long barrel gave it time to burn even if it was a bit slow.

The military had a different priority. Their powder was of a known quality, but thety fired in ranks and the muzzle of the rear rank man had to be in front of the face of the front rank man.

Roy

 

[Gordoncourtney]

In the end I put a bid on this 22g percussion rifle. Probably German good condition
Might change my mind again , it’s a bigger bore than I wanted , so not 100%sure.