Proper Smootbore Barrel Profile?

[Greebe]

So I am in the market for a smoothebore fowling piece. I was thinking about getting one of the TVM Fowler's in their Special Builders Kits which is only $499, which to me is a good deal.

However I have read that the barrel is straight, thus heavy and not historically correct.

So my question is, what is the proper barrel profile on a smoothbore flintlock? Are they a constant taper from the muzzle to the breach, or is it a multi taper?

How long should the octagon portion of the barrel be? Is it standard length regardless of barrel length or it proportional to the barrel length? I.e., I have heard that it is sometimes 1/3rd the length of the barrel.

Should the octagon portion of the barrel be tapered along the flats so that it remains octagon, or should it be tapered on the lathe so that the edges are rounded off? Seems I have seen both ways.

I know that is a lot of questions, but I enjoy a good discussion.

Picture comparisons would be a great addition to this post if you feel so inclined.

Thanks,
Greebe

 

[Trot]

Is the fowler available in the builders special? I only saw rifles listed. They do mention upgrades available, you may be able to get a more appropriate barrel. I am sure the TVM would be a good quality gun, but if correct is what you are after there may be better choices. Clay Smith has a fowler as well as Trade gun kits, the price is higher but more correct parts would certainly drive the cost of the TVM higher as well. Jim Chambers is also always mentioned among the best when it comes to muzzleloader kits. Sorry this doesn't really answer any of your questions, just a couple of thoughts to throw out there.

 

[hanshi]

TVM can supply you with a different barrel that you can specify though it may increase the cost. Matt has built rifles for me with special order barrels.

 

[talon]

Problably talking about the other tvm.

 

[pargent]

From the breech to the muzzle the barrel should taper, it does not matter weather the barrel is round or three stage it should taper this is very important in getting a smoothbore to shoot to POA. 12o-clock on the breech is the rear sight , the front sight can be moved up and down the barrel to get poa or raised or lowered in height for the same reasons (of course this is part of the build process) from past experience most good builders will know where to put the front sight.

 

[Greebe]

I found this on tracks website and it gives more or less the dimensions I am looking for.

It appears that most of the drawings on their site have the octagon part as 1/3 of the length of the barrel.

There are barrels such as in the drawing above that have the octagon section tapered at the same degree as the round section, but just along the flats without the octagons edges being rounded.

It also looks as if North Star West barrels are made with a taper that just rounds the edges off the octagon from being turned on the lathe.

Is one of these more historically correct?

Thanks,
Greebe

 

[pargent]

Both are it just depends on the time and place and intended market for the barrels

 

[jdkerstetter]

With the North Star West barrels, I believe what is being seen is the area between the 2 sets of wedding bands. The barrel is tapered octagon from the breech to the first set and then round tapered to a second set of bands. From that point forward it's tapered round again.

New barrels imitating old ones from this period should not appear lathe turned because they were not. If someone wants their gun build to be convincing they will remove evidence of it.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[pargent]

:thumbsup:

 

[Capt. Jas.]

The octagon to round is sometimes called a Spanish pattern barrel. A real Spanish made barrel was turned. Many conterfeits and facsimiles of the period were not.. they just had the rings filed in on top. IIRC the "Griffin" barrel profiled above was a true Spanish barrel mounted on an English fowling piece by Griffin.


:thumbsup:

 

[jdkerstetter]

Ah! The Spanish exception. Of course there would be one. :haha: Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Greebe]

So during the colonial time period of around 1750's which barrel would be historically correct? When would the full round and octagon to round barrels be used and which would have been more prevalent?

Thanks
Greebe

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I would suggest investing in some books on the type of original guns you are interested in. Also go places to see as many original guns as you can.

 

[matt denison]

"With the North Star West barrels, ....."

They taper continuiously and consistently from breech to muzzle, copied from an 1820 Barnett trade gun in the collection of The Museum Of The Fur Trade. I picked that one because it is graceful, pleasing to look at and easy to aim without a step down at the first wedding band like so many others. It also lightens up the barrel putting more weight near the breech for balance "between the hands" like a fine shotgun. Those trade guns were cheap but the old makers, Barnett in particullar, knew what they were doing.

 

[Grandpa Ron]

As you may have guessed there in no one “correct” fowler barrel, as there are numerous regional types of fowlers, in addition to what we currently refer to as the Type C and D French fusils and the Type G English style often made for the fur trade.

Proper barrel weight is important to balance and I would definitely go with a lighter barrel, particularly if it is long.

As mentioned, if you have the time, do a bit of research. Saying I want to buy a Fowler is a bit like saying I want to buy a car. It always leads to “what kind”.

 

[Birdwatcher]

As you may have guessed there in no one “correct” fowler barrel

Are you aware of any that were not tapered, especially in the mid-1700's?

 

[Birdwatcher]

I know there is a lengthy tome on fowlers out there, I don't have it is all :grin:

I do have "Of Sorts for Colonials, a sort of picture book with photos and descriptions of 1750's weapons used in America.

First off, most of the various muskets have round barrels and large bores. Examples with barrels 36" or less are referred to as carbines.

Five civilian smoothbores; three fowlers, one utilitarian "composites", one Indian Trade Fusee. "Tapered" here meaning fully tapered, breech to muzzle.

1) Fowler made by John Bumford of London.
Round barrel, appears to be tapered and flared.
41" barrel, .64 cal.

2) Fowler made by Richard Wilson of London
Octagon to round, tapered.
48" barrel, .65 cal.

3) American "Composite' Gun (locally made from recycled parts).
Octagon to round, tapered,
41" barrel. .63 cal.

4) Fowler made by Roger Lewis in the Colonies.
Round, tapered, 55" barrel :shocked2: .55 cal.

5) Indian Trade Fusee by John Bumford of London.
Octagon to round, tapered.
46" barrel. .59 cal.

A second book is "For Trade and Treaty" featuring Indian trade guns 1600-1920. A better book because it lists barrel diameters at different points and total weight of the gun.

Note that many of these usually utilitarian guns were also used by White and Mixed-blood frontiersmen.

OK... specific to the Mid-18th Century...


1) French Trade Gun (Fusil de Chasse)
Octagon to round tapered barrel.
49" barrel, .59 cal. 7lb 6oz

2) French Trade Gun.
Octagon to round tapered barrel.
40" barrel, .77 cal 6lb 4oz

Trade Gun by John Bumford of London
Same gun as other book.
Octagon to round, tapered.
46" barrel. .59 cal. 5lbs 4oz


3) Fowler by William Wilson of London. Imported by Sir William Johnson to gift to the Iroquois and other Indians.
Octagon to round, tapered barrel.
47" barrel, .64 cal. 6lbs 4oz.

Hope this helps.
Birdwatcher

 

[Stumpkiller]

So my question is, what is the proper barrel profile on a smoothbore flintlock?

I own one of the Griffin Fowler barrels (in 16 bore) as you posted but that is suitble for the British style fowler in walnut from 1770 +/- that I am interested in. 1750 would possibly be a slightly different pattern . . . but how close are you needing to be?

 

[rich pierce]

"Smoothbore" is a pretty wide swath. A musket will be much thicker at the muzzle to allow a bayonet lug to be mounted and to stand up to hand to hand combat. A trade gun will usually have a barrel that is quite thin at the muzzle, as will a fowling piece. Remember the old 12 ga double barrel shotguns, how thin the barrels were at the muzzle? Like that. It's difficult to get a barrel nowadays that is as finely tapered as was common on original fowling pieces and trade guns.

 

[bpd303]

Then there is this gun that I have had for about 20 years & no idea who made it. A Pope style stock with a 42 inch half octagon to round tapered barrel .630 bore 19 gauge. Pretty light and fast handling. Shoots both shot and patched ball well.