Wildrangeringreen
40 Cal
(any mentions of fixed ammo are just for comparison and frame of reference, so don't gig me for that)
Let's face it, the United States is a mess when it comes to regulation. That is no more apparent than when one looks into the hunting regulations of the various states. Most are highly restrictive on what they allow, yet often the regulations are very convoluted and/or contradictory. An Example of this would be my home state of Ohio, which for decades allowed .45-70 "pistols"... complete with bipod, scope, and 16" Barrel... yet no "rifles" were allowed lol (they do now, but only straight walled cartridges). Another, and more pertinent to this forum, is the requirement of Ohio and many other states to have a ML rifle that is ".38"(ohio), .40, or .45 as the minimum for common deer species. Most of these states also allow people to hunt with .380ACP pistols, or many don't even have a minimum for fixed ammo.
Hunting, like many other things in this land, have been turned into a "game" of sorts, where "players" have to tiptoe around rules (money helps) in order to get what they want, rather than just being pragmatic. Hunting isn't a game, it's stalking and killing living things, and shouldn't be treated as such.
As I build Trad-styled bullet rifles, I look into the regs for various states, out of curiosity if nothing else. I've noticed that most states have regs like this, and they all revolve around "bore size", rather than the capabilities of the arm/loading. Many places (Hungary and Austria, and Germany particularly) have rifle hunting regulations (including ML's in BP seasons) based around a minimum Projectile weight and energy for each game species. As long as your rifle meets that, you're good. That allows people to hunt with what they have, rather than forcing them to buy something special, that doesn't do anything what they already have won't do. This is especially important for ML's as they can be loaded up in wildly different ways. A .32 loaded with a ball and 7gr of powder is not remotely the same as if loaded up with a 225gr bullet and 80gr of powder (the max i recommend in MY .32's), yet they are the same caliber, they can even be the same rifle! Likewise, a 278gr .36 with 85gr charge is not even in the same ballpark as a 180gr .490 round ball. There is a reason bullet rifles were as popular as they were 1820-1880, especially amongst hunters and target shooters.
Then there is the issue of corruption... not the blatant, Grant Administration type, but the subtle influx of cash and merchandise that flows into the halls of power from large companies to politicians and bureaucrats that are supposed to regulate hunting for the benefit of future generations and the animals/habitats themselves. In my lifetime, I have seen most states go from being adamant that the only ML worthy of being hunted with was a .50 (or .48 in some states back in the early 2000's) (not coincidently, the only caliber (other than a few .54's) offered by most large companies); to when TC and Traditions, CVA, ect wanted to release .45's, lowering the minimum to .44, to now that many of these companies are releasing .40's, lowering it to .38. Just this year, there are rumors of Knight and CVA "pushing the envelope" on small bore Muzzle Loading (it's already been done, so it's not revolutionary), and guess what: Georgia magically decided to lower their minimum Caliber for ML's to .30. The Press release for the passing of the bill was adorned in CVA merchandise around the representative's office. Oregon banned bullets for ML's (in ML season) that exceeded 2 calibers in length, which were often used traditionally in bullet-rifles (especially 1850's onward) (this helps powerbelt and other "premium" ML bullet makers, and drives sales of alternative powders for increased velocity).Some would say the relationship between regulations and what's available is a chicken and the egg situation, with the regulations dictating what is on the market; and while that is true to an extent, what I have seen in my lifetime has shown that the actors in the market have undue influence, through gun/hunting rag writers and Marketing/lobbying, on the regulatory process.
Most of the regulations on the books do very little to protect the animals from fools, (the guy hunting deer in Ohio with a .380 pistol doesn't even have to prove he is competent, at least in most European countries, you have to prove competency) and they don't make hunting more accessible to prospective hunters, as they require special equipment that many people aren't interested in for any reason other than to go out and hunt. I am proposing that we hunters need to start pushing for more responsible, pragmatic regulations in hunting. Ones that are not based on a knee-jerk reaction of a bureaucrat or politician, but on some logic and science. The goal of this tread is to provide the community with a place to discuss reasonable equipment regulations. Since I Posted it, I'll go first, I don't have first hand hunting knwolege of every animal in NA, but I have been around Ohio game a lot and have limited experience with Elk hunting (I think they're the most beautiful animals in NA), those more attuned to the intricacies of those beautiful animals, please come forward. I've seen most game animals in NA in the wild, but have no experience hunting them, so I can only make assumptions and supply rough ideas of what would work. Many of these are put together from my own experience and from gleaning through forums like this to find what people are using. I am using Ft/lbs at the muzzle, because simple $80 chronographs are more affordable to normal people, and more likely to be accepted for use by the states (I know different projectiles act differently at range, and energy isn't everything, but that just means your range changes based on what your shooting).
My suggested minimums for single projectile weapons (medium-large game, I think we can agree .22RF and .32/.36 RB rifles can handle small game) (keep in mind these would be the minimums, so the fools that have no sense can get a clue, and the state can punish those too dense to follow reasonable guidelines):
Common Deer (Blacktail, Whitetail, Mule)- 90gr minimum projectile, minimum of 550ft/lbs at the muzzle (.357 mag energy) (.390 round ball (.40 ML rifle), loaded to 1700fps)
Feral Hog- 130gr minimum projectile, minimum 500ft/lbs at the muzzle (.357 mag) (.440 RB (.45 rifle) loaded to 1500fps)
Elk- 175gr minimum projectile, minimum 870ft/lbs (.44 Mag) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 1500fps)
Black Bear- 175gr minimum projectile, minimum 870ft/lbs (.44 Mag) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 1500fps) (I wouldn't do it, but we're talking reasonable minimums here)
Brown Bear/Grizzly- 175gr Min projectile, min 1482ft/lbs (buff bore .44 mag +P) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 2000fps)
Moose- 175gr Min projectile, min 1482ft/lbs (buff bore .44 mag +P) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 2000fps)
American Bison- 220 gr projectile, 1623ft/lbs (Buff Bore .454 Cas) (.530 RB (.54 rifle), loaded to 1875fps)
Wolf- 90gr minimum projectile, minimum of 550ft/lbs at the muzzle (.357 mag energy) (.390 round ball (.40 ML rifle), loaded to 1700fps)
Puma- 175gr minimum projectile, minimum 870ft/lbs (.44 Mag) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 1500fps)
Bobcat-60gr Minimum Projectile weight, minimum of 250 ft/lbs (.38spl) (.350 RB (.36 rifle) loaded to 1400 fps)
Coyote- 60gr Minimum Projectile weight, minimum of 250 ft/lbs (.38spl) (.350 RB (.36 rifle) loaded to 1400 fps)
Javelina- 90gr minimum projectile, minimum of 550ft/lbs at the muzzle (.357 mag energy) (.390 round ball (.40 ML rifle), loaded to 1700fps)
What do y'all think? please post you're ideas, and reasoning for them.
Let's face it, the United States is a mess when it comes to regulation. That is no more apparent than when one looks into the hunting regulations of the various states. Most are highly restrictive on what they allow, yet often the regulations are very convoluted and/or contradictory. An Example of this would be my home state of Ohio, which for decades allowed .45-70 "pistols"... complete with bipod, scope, and 16" Barrel... yet no "rifles" were allowed lol (they do now, but only straight walled cartridges). Another, and more pertinent to this forum, is the requirement of Ohio and many other states to have a ML rifle that is ".38"(ohio), .40, or .45 as the minimum for common deer species. Most of these states also allow people to hunt with .380ACP pistols, or many don't even have a minimum for fixed ammo.
Hunting, like many other things in this land, have been turned into a "game" of sorts, where "players" have to tiptoe around rules (money helps) in order to get what they want, rather than just being pragmatic. Hunting isn't a game, it's stalking and killing living things, and shouldn't be treated as such.
As I build Trad-styled bullet rifles, I look into the regs for various states, out of curiosity if nothing else. I've noticed that most states have regs like this, and they all revolve around "bore size", rather than the capabilities of the arm/loading. Many places (Hungary and Austria, and Germany particularly) have rifle hunting regulations (including ML's in BP seasons) based around a minimum Projectile weight and energy for each game species. As long as your rifle meets that, you're good. That allows people to hunt with what they have, rather than forcing them to buy something special, that doesn't do anything what they already have won't do. This is especially important for ML's as they can be loaded up in wildly different ways. A .32 loaded with a ball and 7gr of powder is not remotely the same as if loaded up with a 225gr bullet and 80gr of powder (the max i recommend in MY .32's), yet they are the same caliber, they can even be the same rifle! Likewise, a 278gr .36 with 85gr charge is not even in the same ballpark as a 180gr .490 round ball. There is a reason bullet rifles were as popular as they were 1820-1880, especially amongst hunters and target shooters.
Then there is the issue of corruption... not the blatant, Grant Administration type, but the subtle influx of cash and merchandise that flows into the halls of power from large companies to politicians and bureaucrats that are supposed to regulate hunting for the benefit of future generations and the animals/habitats themselves. In my lifetime, I have seen most states go from being adamant that the only ML worthy of being hunted with was a .50 (or .48 in some states back in the early 2000's) (not coincidently, the only caliber (other than a few .54's) offered by most large companies); to when TC and Traditions, CVA, ect wanted to release .45's, lowering the minimum to .44, to now that many of these companies are releasing .40's, lowering it to .38. Just this year, there are rumors of Knight and CVA "pushing the envelope" on small bore Muzzle Loading (it's already been done, so it's not revolutionary), and guess what: Georgia magically decided to lower their minimum Caliber for ML's to .30. The Press release for the passing of the bill was adorned in CVA merchandise around the representative's office. Oregon banned bullets for ML's (in ML season) that exceeded 2 calibers in length, which were often used traditionally in bullet-rifles (especially 1850's onward) (this helps powerbelt and other "premium" ML bullet makers, and drives sales of alternative powders for increased velocity).Some would say the relationship between regulations and what's available is a chicken and the egg situation, with the regulations dictating what is on the market; and while that is true to an extent, what I have seen in my lifetime has shown that the actors in the market have undue influence, through gun/hunting rag writers and Marketing/lobbying, on the regulatory process.
Most of the regulations on the books do very little to protect the animals from fools, (the guy hunting deer in Ohio with a .380 pistol doesn't even have to prove he is competent, at least in most European countries, you have to prove competency) and they don't make hunting more accessible to prospective hunters, as they require special equipment that many people aren't interested in for any reason other than to go out and hunt. I am proposing that we hunters need to start pushing for more responsible, pragmatic regulations in hunting. Ones that are not based on a knee-jerk reaction of a bureaucrat or politician, but on some logic and science. The goal of this tread is to provide the community with a place to discuss reasonable equipment regulations. Since I Posted it, I'll go first, I don't have first hand hunting knwolege of every animal in NA, but I have been around Ohio game a lot and have limited experience with Elk hunting (I think they're the most beautiful animals in NA), those more attuned to the intricacies of those beautiful animals, please come forward. I've seen most game animals in NA in the wild, but have no experience hunting them, so I can only make assumptions and supply rough ideas of what would work. Many of these are put together from my own experience and from gleaning through forums like this to find what people are using. I am using Ft/lbs at the muzzle, because simple $80 chronographs are more affordable to normal people, and more likely to be accepted for use by the states (I know different projectiles act differently at range, and energy isn't everything, but that just means your range changes based on what your shooting).
My suggested minimums for single projectile weapons (medium-large game, I think we can agree .22RF and .32/.36 RB rifles can handle small game) (keep in mind these would be the minimums, so the fools that have no sense can get a clue, and the state can punish those too dense to follow reasonable guidelines):
Common Deer (Blacktail, Whitetail, Mule)- 90gr minimum projectile, minimum of 550ft/lbs at the muzzle (.357 mag energy) (.390 round ball (.40 ML rifle), loaded to 1700fps)
Feral Hog- 130gr minimum projectile, minimum 500ft/lbs at the muzzle (.357 mag) (.440 RB (.45 rifle) loaded to 1500fps)
Elk- 175gr minimum projectile, minimum 870ft/lbs (.44 Mag) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 1500fps)
Black Bear- 175gr minimum projectile, minimum 870ft/lbs (.44 Mag) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 1500fps) (I wouldn't do it, but we're talking reasonable minimums here)
Brown Bear/Grizzly- 175gr Min projectile, min 1482ft/lbs (buff bore .44 mag +P) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 2000fps)
Moose- 175gr Min projectile, min 1482ft/lbs (buff bore .44 mag +P) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 2000fps)
American Bison- 220 gr projectile, 1623ft/lbs (Buff Bore .454 Cas) (.530 RB (.54 rifle), loaded to 1875fps)
Wolf- 90gr minimum projectile, minimum of 550ft/lbs at the muzzle (.357 mag energy) (.390 round ball (.40 ML rifle), loaded to 1700fps)
Puma- 175gr minimum projectile, minimum 870ft/lbs (.44 Mag) (.490 RB (.50 rifle) loaded to 1500fps)
Bobcat-60gr Minimum Projectile weight, minimum of 250 ft/lbs (.38spl) (.350 RB (.36 rifle) loaded to 1400 fps)
Coyote- 60gr Minimum Projectile weight, minimum of 250 ft/lbs (.38spl) (.350 RB (.36 rifle) loaded to 1400 fps)
Javelina- 90gr minimum projectile, minimum of 550ft/lbs at the muzzle (.357 mag energy) (.390 round ball (.40 ML rifle), loaded to 1700fps)
What do y'all think? please post you're ideas, and reasoning for them.
You're proposing an arbitrary performance level, rather unattainable, while being critical of DNR regulations that are arbitrary. 
I like the idea of having an extra season like the PA flintlock season though, call it a "heritage season" or something, allows us to break out the ball throwers lol! Most states aren't like TX, unfortunately, and most of the state govt's will never relinquish the appearance of "control" they think they have. It would be a "culture shock" for them lol. sad to see.
