Pyrodex in flintlocks

[ebiggs1]

Still being a new guy to flintlocks, although I shot my 500th patched round ball last Saturday. I am still too new to know why we hate Pyrodex so badly. Just what is Pyrodex and why does it not work well in our flintlock rifles? I know factually one of my TC flintlocks, which will remain anonymous but is advertised to shoot Pyrodex, does so. Although the ignition speed is drastically slowed down, it will teach you how to hold your site pattern longer. Is that the only difference?
I shot Pyrodex in my cap lock for years and didn't really see any bad qualities.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Pyrodex is a potassium perchlorate base and has a much higher flash point (740ºF vs. 320ºF) and slower burning rate and it doesn't ingite well from the sparks off a frizzen. Nothing evil about it - it just doesn't work for flintlocks.

T/C came up with the Firestorm to get around some of the issues (doesn't it need the pellets with the ignitor base?) but most stock flintlocks won't shoot it for spit.

Besides - it is redundant and unnecessary. Blackpowder is cheaper, easier to clean up after and smells right. :haha:

 

[rabjr]

Still being a new guy to flintlocks, although I shot my 500th patched round ball last Saturday. I am still too new to know why we hate Pyrodex so badly. Just what is Pyrodex and why does it not work well in our flintlock rifles? I know factually one of my TC flintlocks, which will remain anonymous but is advertised to shoot Pyrodex, does so. Although the ignition speed is drastically slowed down, it will teach you how to hold your site pattern longer. Is that the only difference?
I shot Pyrodex in my cap lock for years and didn't really see any bad qualities.

Heat

Black powder ignites at a much lower temp than Pyro does. Thats why you generally have no problems with Pyro with a cap gun unless the powder is old. Pyro will deteriate where Black powder will not. Pyrodex was made to be used in cap guns, it was never made to to be used in flintlocks. Today they are trying to make a flintlock that works with the stuff.

Although the ignition speed is drastically slowed down, it will teach you how to hold your site pattern longer.

Not when my flintlock is pretty damn close to Instantaneous with black powder.

 

[ozark57]

Pyrodex is corrosive. BP is NOT corrosive, it is hydroscopic. Big differnce.
Pyrodex-Why?

 

[fyrfyter43]

I really don't understand folks' fascination with Pyrodex, and why they use nearly any excuse to justify its use. I honestly can't think of any positive to using it over black powder.

Black powder is readily available with just the slightest hint of forethought. No, you can't just hop in the truck and run to the nearest WallyMart to pick up a pound if you run out. But any of the mail-order vendors will have it delivered to your door within a few days. Bought by the case, it's much cheaper than any of the fake powders. And since BP won't degrade over time, I see no reason to buy a smaller lot, unless you have to deal with storage restrictions.

I have a barrel upstairs from an in*#$& that was given to my father. It previously belonged to my uncle, so I know a bit about its history. It was fed nothing but Pyrodex, but only shot once or twice a year. The last time he shot it (last deer season), he did a quick clean-up, not as thorough as he should have. I've never seen a barrel in as bad of shape as this one is now. I wouldn't even trust the barrel with a light load, as the pitting is so bad that there are half-inch long areas where the rifling is completely gone.

If you're happy with shooting Pyrodex out of your plastic-stocked, stainless "flintlock", even though you've said yourself that hangfires are the norm, then so be it. I prefer a powder that provides nearly instantaneous ignition when I pull the trigger.

 

[curator]

Several years ago when I was living in a particularly gun-unfriendly area I had one pound of FFFg with no possibility of getting any more to feed my .45 caliber flinter. Pyrocrap was easily available. I found that if I put about 8 to 10 grains of FFFg down the breech first then the remaining charge of Pyro "P" I got good ignition and excellent velocity/accuracy. Of course I primed with holy black and my rifle did have an "Englich Breech" or chambered breech plug. This allowed me to stretch the use of my flinter for over a year until I could procure a supply of the real powder. Yes, the pyro-residue is wicked corrosive. I made a habit of checking my bore a few days after each cleaning and re-oiling.

 

If you search the "shooting acc" forum, you see that this has been discussed many times.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/225141
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/227090

 

[Bearbait2]

Mr. fyrfyter43,
As has been stated many times before, not all of us have black powder readily available. And no, it can not be delivered to my door by one of the many mail order vendors. Nearest known source is a 750 mile trip, if he even has any in stock. Anymore, it is just too long of a trip for me to take.
It is either shoot our flintlocks with Pyrodex (duplex load to stretch our existing supply of BP) or don't shoot at all. Not a big problem for us as it is our chosen life style that brings this situation about. Merely an inconvenience.
Hope this information/insight provides an opportunity to understand why some of us do as we do.
Best Wishes

 

[Zoar]

I am pretty sure you can get BP shipped to you. To spread out the "Hazardous Shipping Fee" it is best to buy a case. If you can't justify spending that much at once, you could "go in with" some buddies on the case purchase.

Pyrodex has not at all worked for me in my flintlocks. Also since I hunt with these the idea of charging it first with a couple of grains of the real stuff and then loading in Pyrodex then hoping it will all go as planned when it is time to pull the trigger on some game which could be a day or more since it was loaded just does not provide me with the confidence I need for hunting.

Black Powder by itself works in flintlocks.

Pyrodex by itself does not work in flintlocks.

I guess I don't see it any more complicated than that. :thumbsup:

 

[OLDBRO]

What about Triple7 and Shockys Sub? Are they all variations on the same theme?

 

[Zoar]

There is Black Powder, the real deal, and then there is everything else. Yes.

 

[paulvallandigham]

All the substitutes are based on other chemical formulae, and require a much higher ignition temperature to ignite. They are no better than, and are probably even harder to light than Pyrodex.

Stick with Black Powder. If you can get mail or UPS shipments, YOu can get BP delivered to you, too. Only guys like BrownBear, who lives on Kodiak Island, and folks living in Hawaii, are going to have really difficult times obtaining BP shipments. That is because of the language in the Homeland Security regulations, and, frankly, those were written by idiots in government who had ANO idea what they were doing. Those regulations should be challenged and changed. The Constitution give the Federal Government the power to Regulate Interstate commerce, NOT BAN IT.

 

[mazo kid]

...I really don't understand folks' fascination with Pyrodex, and why they use nearly any excuse to justify its use. I honestly can't think of any positive to using it over black powder....If you're happy with shooting Pyrodex out of your plastic-stocked, stainless "flintlock", even though you've said yourself that hangfires are the norm, then so be it. I prefer a powder that provides nearly instantaneous ignition when I pull the trigger.

It's not that we "hate" Pyrodex or any other substitute powder; if that's all you can get, then by all means have at it. Being primarily a flintlock shooter, I only shoot the "holy black" and I can order it by phone/email and it will be delivered to my door. I'm hoping this thread doesn't go on and on like a previous one where folks were arguing about a plastic stocked stainless flint rifle. Just ain't "traditional" no matter how you look at it, regardless if it is a flinter and shoots talcum powder or anything else. However, if you want to shoot one then do it. If you want to shoot the subs, then do it!! You don't need to make any excuses about why. I know there are places where that is all that is available and I feel for you, guess some of us are luckier than others. Anyway, good luck in your shooting!

 

[J.D.]

Mr. fyrfyter43,
As has been stated many times before, not all of us have black powder readily available. And no, it can not be delivered to my door by one of the many mail order vendors. Nearest known source is a 750 mile trip, if he even has any in stock. Anymore, it is just too long of a trip for me to take.

Don't know if you are aware of the Nor' West Co, nor do I know how far you are from Two Rivers, but Thom Swan of the Nor' West Co. sells black. He may, or may not, be closer than 750 miles, but the NWC may be an alternate source for powder.
http://www.norwestcompany.com/

God bless

 

[redleg2]

I hit a pretty big nerve the last time i posted about Pyrodex usage in my flinters, so without trying to ignite passions, I'll just say that it's worked well for me when used in conj with Goex 4F in the pan. Someone above mentioned that Pyrodex is Hydroscopic..actually, it is Hugroscopic. I'm wondering if my good fortune i using it is related in part, to my extremely hot/dry climate plus my 4f Goex BP in the pan?

 

[ebiggs1]

To clear up a couple items. I am neither promoting nor condemning Pyrodex. I simply asked a question. Yes I could search the web or archives but you can’t interact with the archives. That is why I joined a Forum. If someone feels they have answered an inquiry too many times before, just don’t reply.
I have noticed my TC Hawken flintlock does not work well with Pyrodex but the afore mentioned ”˜anonymous’ one does. And, yes, I already know it is not a duplicate of any traditional firearm. Actually neither is but I never claimed they were. They are what they are.
I do notice Pyrodex provides more velocity and muzzle energy than Black Powder does.
When compared load for load in the tables. This is probably why the cap lock gunner
use it.
Does anyone know why the subs do not more closely mimic Black Powder? Is that not
possible?

 

[rabjr]

Does anyone know why the subs do not more closely mimic Black Powder? Is that not
possible?

Why should they? Theres just a handful of people trying to use these powders in flintlocks. When theres a ton of people using these powders in modern in-lines or any other cap gun. Thats where the money is.

 

[ebiggs1]

Good point!

 

[biliff]

Does anyone know why the subs do not more closely mimic Black Powder? Is that not
possible?

This is my take on it based on what I've seen since the introduction of Pyrodex.

The original intention was to create a powder that could be used in sidelock muzzleloaders that would be classified as a propellant and not an explosive. It could then be stored/sold right without the attendant restrictions of BP. The early versions all ended up with a higher ignition temp then real BP which wasn't that big a deal for percussion guns but didn't work real well for flintlocks. Since flinters are such a small part of the market there probably wasn't much incentive to spend the R&D money to come up with a sub powder for them.

Later powders/pellets were developed strictly with the unmentionables in mind with centerfire primers. Increased performance beyond regular BP was the goal as well as "ease of use" (pellets). Traditional sidelocks weren't a consideration, though the loose powder will work in 'em.

 

[redleg2]

I screwed up the spelling of "hygroscopic"...
also, I find Pyrodex fouling softer, as Sam Fadala has talked about.