Question about Loyalist Arms and Repairs

[Flintlock Whiskey]

.. I just wish people could discuss things on here with an open mind and to do so in at least a civil manner, even when agreeing to disagree ...

Let's seek to maintain a HIGH signal to noise ratio here folks!

I don't know man, it gets pretty noisy when the bickering begins. Sometimes it reminds me of grade school.

 

[FlinterNick]

One thing that should be mentioned about Indian Arms is that there are two generations of Indian made black powder arms. The earlier 1980’s and 90’s suppliers to Henry Krank and other European companies did a fairly good job on the repro Bess’s and 1777’s. These were fully functional firearms, pretty nice. Stocked in Turkish Walnut. These are not to be confused with the ones sold by Military Heritage or Veteran or Loyalist Arms.

 

[Surfinator58]

Between my brother and I we have six of them and everyone was suitable Quality Steel nice figure in the wood locks need some work and touch hole needs to be drilled but other than that if they were produced in the US would go for at least $1,500

 

[FlinterNick]

From a past project, One of the fellas in my regiment needed his Indian long land worked on. Some stock correction, Tuned the lock, case hardened the frizzen, cleaned up the lock, hardened and polished the internals. Throws a decent spark.

Stock I stained over several coats of black, then yellow and then a nutmeg brown. Finished with tung oil, and mineral spirits and japan drier. Has a rough by semi gloss finish.

Another past project a french musket from loyalist arms.

You can see on the teak where some of the stocks are blotchy, and to tight to absorb stain. Overall they can be made to look halfway decent, these are somewhat older Indian made muskets from the 1980’s.

 

[springfield art]

Yes, Indian made.
A US distributor is Loyalist Arms


Waiting for the inevitable cut&paste responses that they're not true firearms since they weren't manufactured/exported as a firearm. They're not proofed or the wood is too heavy + cannot be reduced in size or not PC/HC. Here, below, is a rare photo of an attempt to proof test an Indian smoothbore, per their detractors:
View attachment 221862

What did I miss?

Love it!

 

[springfield art]

The choice to own an Indian made musket usually addresses one circumstance, costs. With the later being availability.

If you’re a reinactor hoping to have a usable musket that you could live fire, an Indian made musket would be appropriate, and a good choice, however for the reinactor that dives deep into the hobby and wants accurate reproductions and chooses to invest a lot of money into their muskets, i would buy too many of them personally.

As you learn more about the arms, accuracy and facts about each musket, you’ll be disappointed in what you have and end up spending more than you need to.

The Quality issue; Indian made muskets are not high quality, there’s argument to be had here about what a quality musket is. Indian muskets often fail because of poorly made locks. All parts are hand made, replacement parts need to be hand made. I only work on Indian made arms for my regiment. I’ve made mainsprings, resoled frizzens, added integral lugs to bridals because the internals were not steady, made sear springs etc welded and relocated parts. Costs are 25-100 per job. Locks are worth maybe 150-175, so you’ll end up paying the cost of labor and parts for a BMW for working on a Subaru.

Most of the issues I’ve seen on them are poor locks and stocks that are just not well seasoned teak or rosewood, some stocks i suspect are aged too long and crack at the wrist.

Just be wary of the monies invest in them, i wouldn’t go paying $150 for a new hand made mainspring or anything like that, as it will be a sunk cost when you part ways with the musket.

What i would not do !

Do not buy an Indian made musket with the intention of making it better quality, replacing the lock with an Italian or rifle shoppe lock, using casted parts from the rife shoppe or anywhere else will usually not end up working without some expensive customizations.

Do not restock them with pedersoli stocks, this will not work. Restocking them from a blank will run you upward near 800$, unless you find someone generous enough to do the work for gaining experience.

Do not replace the barrel on a long land with an american made barrel, american made barrels are much larger too large for the Indian made stocks. With teak and rosewood stocks, the more wood the better, it reinforces weak areas like the breech and forearm. Drilled area’s on the stocks are often chipped, cracked and split.

Teak stocks don’t finish well, it’s a closed grained wood. Stain often blotches and old need to be very thinned. What works well is steaming the stocks to open the grain and begin staining at around 120 and varnishing or oiling around 150/180. Do not burnish. Wet Sanding even painting on fast drying varnishes works best.

By the time you’ve upgraded your Indian made musket, you’re at the cost of an assembled pedersoli, miroku or rifle shoppe kit.

Keep your upgrades simple and stupid. Recolor and refinish the stock, tune the lock, a stamp or two here and there goes a long way with these Indian made arms.

With that said, i only recommend Loyalist arms they’re great people and will only sell muskets that are good enough to shoot.

You have a deep knowledge of them! BTW, don't knock the Subarus! They have a cult following and are high quality! I almost bought an India-made Trade Musket, but stumbled upon a Curly Gostomsky instead. I owned at least 3 India-mades, but traded them off over time, never really shot them.

 

[deGheyn]

I have had good luck with them. They "tune" the guns a bit before they ship. Yes, they are India made. Just know that you're not buying a $3000 custom gun. They still work & won't blow up in your face unless you do something stupid. BTW, something stupid would also blow up a $3000 gun.

 

[deGheyn]

I will keep that in mind. If Im not mistaken, the guns come with proof paperwork?

The paperwork tells you how to proof the barrel. They usually send a ball & info on powder load. You will need to remove the barrel & proof it yourself. This isn't my video, but it will give you an idea of what to expect. Loyalst proof

 

[64Springer]

Don't proofing houses set their barrels up in such a way that the barrels can move when the BOOM takes place?

 

[FlinterNick]

The paperwork tells you how to proof the barrel. They usually send a ball & info on powder load. You will need to remove the barrel & proof it yourself. This isn't my video, but it will give you an idea of what to expect. Loyalst proof

From my understanding the whole purpose of getting a musket proof tested is to get it “proof stamped”. Proofing the gun yourself rather than an independent source is a conflict.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Such a self conducted test is not a proof test.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

Such a self conducted test is not a proof test.

As long as it doesn't look like peeled banana after it goes off.

 

[Sidney Smith]

From what I am gathering on this thread, it is the same old story. Buy a higher quality anything and cry once. Buy poor and continue crying and paying. I appreciate all the information. It will go far in my decision making.

If you read these threads regarding India made firearms, one statement seems to be repeated often, " after I reworked this, or that, or did this to the lock, etc"......That should be a major red flag, for anything.

If you have to modify, rework, or rebuild something before it will function reliably, that should be the clue to walk away and look for better quality. Yes, you will most likely have to pay more. To me the extra I pay upfront is worth the aggravation saved from dealing with a sub par, but less expensive item.

 

[FlinterNick]

If you read these threads regarding India made firearms, one statement seems to be repeated often, " after I reworked this, or that, or did this to the lock, etc"......That should be a major red flag, for anything.

If you have to modify, rework, or rebuild something before it will function reliably, that should be the clue to walk away and look for better quality. Yes, you will most likely have to pay more. To me the extra I pay upfront is worth the aggravation saved from dealing with a sub par, but less expensive item.

The locks are just not very good, Pedersoli, Japanese and Rifle shoppe castings are made from high quality cast steel and some are CNC cut, they made well. The occasional pedersoli lock will have issues, and rifle shoppe lock quality depends on the person assembling them.

One of the biggest tissues i have with Indian locks is they’re over polished and not hardened, file marks are polished over. These are not good qualities in a lock with good performance. It will eventually fail.

They can be made to work rather well.

 

[FlinterNick]

Such a self conducted test is not a proof test.

Agree, and a waste of time. A 140 grain test with one round isn’t really an accurate proof test.

 

[FlinterNick]

Yes, Indian made.
A US distributor is Loyalist Arms


Waiting for the inevitable cut&paste responses that they're not true firearms since they weren't manufactured/exported as a firearm. They're not proofed or the wood is too heavy + cannot be reduced in size or not PC/HC. Here, below, is a rare photo of an attempt to proof test an Indian smoothbore, per their detractors:
View attachment 221862

What did I miss?

Loyalist arms is in Nova Scotia Canada.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

The choice to own an Indian made musket usually addresses one circumstance, costs.

That, unfortunately, is the big rub, the cost. I have a limited income and want an indian trade gun real bad and for a long time. So when I see an option like an Indian made gun at half the cost, it is a temptation. Ultimately it sounds like I will more than pay the difference in frustration and regret.

 

[skwerleater]

Flintlock Whiskey, the lock is the heart of the gun. The stock, hardware, barrel are all secondary to the lock. If the lock is mediocre or problematic, it diminishes your entire experience when shooting a flintlock. It’s frustrating as hell to try and enjoy a flintlock that is inconsistent.
Consider saving up and getting a reliable name flintlock. The payoff will be worth it.
Good luck man, enjoy your journey into this wonderful pursuit!!!!

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

Flintlock Whiskey, the lock is the heart of the gun. The stock, hardware, barrel are all secondary to the lock. If the lock is mediocre or problematic, it diminishes your entire experience when shooting a flintlock. It’s frustrating as hell to try and enjoy a flintlock that is inconsistent.
Consider saving up and getting a reliable name flintlock. The payoff will be worth it.
Good luck man, enjoy your journey into this wonderful pursuit!!!!

I have to say that this is probably the most useful advice I have ever received on this site.

 

[cebusey]

From what I am gathering on this thread, it is the same old story. Buy a higher quality anything and cry once. Buy poor and continue crying and paying. I appreciate all the information. It will go far in my decision making.

There are no absolutes. I have a Loyalist arms flintlock that I purchased in 2002. It functions flawlessly and outside of replacing flints it has served me well. On the other hand I have owned a pedersoli which was a piece of unsafe crap and they would not stand behind their warranty. Both of the the same vintage.

I have seen crap Indian guns at gun shows as well. I would not hesitate to buy another from Loyalist Arms. I would hesitate to buy a pedersoli.

This website can be wonderful but trying to get complete objective information can be nearly impossible. I have no doubt that Flinter Nick is speaking from long and valuable experience and i believe him but unless i missed something he did not differentiate from one maker or dealer to another - which could be near impossible I admit but it does cast doubt on the Indian made muskets that are good as well as spotlighting the trash.

Neither Pedersoli or Indian made arms will touch the quality of a well assembled Kibler - but not all of us can afford that fair but expensive price tag.