Question for Paper Cartridge C&B Shooters

[Enfield58]

I just started to using the curling(?) paper that's available from the beauty supply stores for making paper cartridges for my cap and ball revolvers.

I use the store bought round balls as I don't want to spend time casting bullets instead of shooting. I also put the lube over the ball and have never been impressed with the wads.

Before the paper cartridges I used the rubber thread protectors with ball stuck in one end to contain the powder until ready for use.

So far, I really like the convenience of inserting the cartridge in the chamber and ramming it in.

After about three loadings, I need to pick the paper out of the chamber. That has a way of detracting from the convenience of a pre-measured charge.

I was wondering if any other paper cartridge shooters have as much paper residue in their chambers as I have noticed.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

Are you nitrating the paper?

 

[Enfield58]

Are you nitrating the paper?

No. I have some potassium nitrate that I used to use for my Sharps rifle but found that the paper I was using was completely consumed upon firing. So it was not necessary to nitrate the paper.

The curling paper burns pretty fast when I take a match to it. The only thing that I can think of is that the paper isn't burning where the glue is applied.

I'm thinking of making a little worm out of a piece of twisted wire to clean the chambers out after a few firings. A pair of needle nosed pliers or tweezers might take to long to use to pick the paper out.

A wire worm, on the other hand, might be faster as all I need to do is insert it in the chamber and twist to catch the paper.

I say all this as I don't want to start nitrating paper as that's an extra step I don't want to contend with. If I have to do that, then I might as well stick with using the rubber thread protectors for pre-measured charges.

 

[William P Sepessy]

I did an experiment this year with the hair curling papers as I wanted to use paper cartridges in my 36 Navies at Cowboy Matches. Previous attempts showed some paper residue in the chambers. I thought this residue would eventually cause a problem. I used plain Sally brand papers, not nitrated, glue sticks, 18grs of 3F Olde Enysford. I did not attach a projectile as I use a variety of round balls and conicals. In other words, a "paper sack" of just powder, then load a projectile and a little lube over the top. I took two Uberti 51 Navies to the range, loaded all six chambers in both guns and fired away. I did this five more times WITHOUT any attention to the chambers, no attempt to remove the residue as I wanted to determine at what point I would start getting mis-fires. There were none. All 72 rounds went off as normal. That simulates six stages at a Cowboy match--actually a little more as you only load five each stage. Thinking I must have gotten lucky, I repeated this exact experiment three more times on different dates with different guns, Uberti 51 & 61 Navies. That is a total of 288 rounds without the slightest hint of a hang fire let alone a mis-fire. So, apparently the paper residue from the hair curling papers does not cause the ignition problem I was expecting. At what point could it happen? I don't know, maybe this year I will shoot more than the 72 shots at one time, but for now I'm pretty satisfied.

 

[Enfield58]

I had one misfire that I attributed to an accumulation of paper residue.

There must be something with the method of construction that I’m using.

I use the same method the gentleman in the video does. I like it cause it’s fast. The only difference is that I don’t use a wad and grease cookie.

So I suspect a problem with the glued and folded tail of the cartridge.

Video here:

 

[William P Sepessy]

Enfield58, I think you may be right about folded tail. I use a two piece paper cartridge where the bottom is a separate small single layer of the paper. I got the idea from a youtube video by "Cap & Ball", a gentleman from Budapest. He has a website, Capandball.eu, but the instructions on his site are for rifle rounds and are a little different. For some reason, the pistol paper cartridge video I could only find on youtube. The two piece paper cartridge is a little more work, but not much and it sure seems to work. Start poking around "making paper cartridges" on youtube and you will eventually find this guy.

 

[bigted]

Congrats on using the best method since buttered bread to load and shoot your revolvers.

I use zig zag cig rolling papers even tho there is talk about not using them. They work and work well.

I roll em on a tapered dowel and leave about 3/8ths hanging over the small end of the stick. After licking the gummed edge and sticking it together along the taper, I then lick the overhang and stick it over the end and wind up with a flat bottomed , tapered cartridge to fill with my 22 grains of Ol E 2 or 3 Fg. Then I place my ball into the cart and over the powder and twist the remaing paper over top of the ball. Lick my fingers a bit to ensure the twist stays tight.

After I have 50 "rolled" I melt some SPG or my recipe for lube, in a small container in the microwave oven. Now I dip the ball end with the twisted tail into the melted lube up to and including about 1/8th of the paper just below the ball. Allow these to cool and solidify completely. Now snip off the twisted end over the ball.

Now when you load these into the revolver, the small ( but enough) amount of lube gives enough lube for many many reloads in a row.

Like has been mentioned above, i retain small bits of paper occasionally but have discovered ( again as mentioned above ) that this bits of paper never causes hangfires nor misfires.

I have fired 50 some of these cartridges in a row and maintained a 3 inch group at 25 yards. Very fun.

If I can't roll em fast ... I am like you ... I'd rather just use the lose components as I shoot.

My picture to the upper left is some I rolled thusly with Lee's conical bullets. They shot very well too.

 

[Enfield58]

Congrats on using the best method since buttered bread to load and shoot your revolvers.

I use zig zag cig rolling papers even tho there is talk about not using them. They work and work well.

I roll em on a tapered dowel and leave about 3/8ths hanging over the small end of the stick. After licking the gummed edge and sticking it together along the taper, I then lick the overhang and stick it over the end and wind up with a flat bottomed , tapered cartridge to fill with my 22 grains of Ol E 2 or 3 Fg. Then I place my ball into the cart and over the powder and twist the remaing paper over top of the ball. Lick my fingers a bit to ensure the twist stays tight.

After I have 50 "rolled" I melt some SPG or my recipe for lube, in a small container in the microwave oven. Now I dip the ball end with the twisted tail into the melted lube up to and including about 1/8th of the paper just below the ball. Allow these to cool and solidify completely. Now snip off the twisted end over the ball.

Now when you load these into the revolver, the small ( but enough) amount of lube gives enough lube for many many reloads in a row.

Like has been mentioned above, i retain small bits of paper occasionally but have discovered ( again as mentioned above ) that this bits of paper never causes hangfires nor misfires.

I have fired 50 some of these cartridges in a row and maintained a 3 inch group at 25 yards. Very fun.

If I can't roll em fast ... I am like you ... I'd rather just use the lose components as I shoot.

My picture to the upper left is some I rolled thusly with Lee's conical bullets. They shot very well too.

I will be getting back to the range in the next few days. In the meantime, I have been using different paper than I started with and rolled a couple hundred rounds for my LeMat and Remington.

The paper that I was using before was flimsy and I could not roll it tight enough to feed it quickly in the chamber. I also had to fiddle around with the ball to get it properly aligned over the chamber mouth.

The new brand of curling paper that I got gives me a tight little package that is easily inserted in the chamber. The reason I say all this it that with the looser paper, that left more material in the chamber than with something that is tight.

The tighter more compressed roll leaves a smaller amount of paper in the chamber. I'm also hoping that this stuff burns better. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

I might follow your lead and dip the ball end in some SPG or some home made beeswax/oilive oil lubricant.

Question; Do you have any problems with the SPG soaking through the paper and contaminating the powder?

In addition, do you really find that this is sufficient lubricant to keep the fouling soft?

 

[bigted]

Yes I believe these dipped cartridges have enough lube to do the job for fouling as well as accuracy.

As for the SPG soaking thru the paper, I live in western Oregon and most of the year it is fairly cool (not cold but cool) and my luck with SPG went fairly good ... however , I would add that the old recipe from the military was 8 parts bee wax and 1 part lard. I find this to crumble a bit upon loading ... maybe my mix was too cool when I dipped them and too much lube stayed on the ball/paper

 

[snubnose57]

I use tea bags for mine, so far no residue in the chambers.

 

[Enfield58]

Bigoted, I didn’t use SPG as you did. I have the Bore Butter in stick form for the lubrisizer.

It’s got the same consistency as SPG. So I thought this would work,

The problem that I had was after seating the ball, the lubricant and the paper that was sheared off the seated ball stuck to the end of the rammer when it was withdrawn from the chamber.

The result was that I had to pick away at the stuck lube and paper from the end of the rammer.

It took more time to fix the problem than by loading with a flask and spreading lube over the ball.

Do you have this problem with SPG?

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Interesting thread, Gents.
I have never really got at making paper cartridges.
My old revolver, (Tranter) likes .457" balls.
For cartridges, what size ball would you chaps recommend for starters?

Thank you in advance, and all the best,
Richard.

 

[Enfield58]

Interesting thread, Gents.
I have never really got at making paper cartridges.
My old revolver, (Tranter) likes .457" balls.
For cartridges, what size ball would you chaps recommend for starters?

Thank you in advance, and all the best,
Richard.

It would seem that if it like the .457 balls then why not use them?

 

[Desperate Lee]

Gentlemen I too use the curling papers and have residue left in the bore. However I have not had one misfire with it. My 2 Beals Remmies love the paper cartridges. I had a friend of mine Omnivore(on another forum) make and calculate a form for 30grs powder, a thin card, a small lube cookie, and a .454 ball for my 44's. For the .36 he did the same and I love them. I make my own lube using Gaefo #1 as a base then to my spec. The cards I punch out of the business cards I have left over from my job. Takes a little longer to roll your own this way but being retired I seem to have the time now. I also use Hornady swaged .452 200 grn SWC in these Remington's. I don't paper these though, just powder, card, lube cookie, then bullet. Got a nice kick to it. Set it off with 26 to 30 gems of SWISS and you know it is a BIG BORE handgun.
DL

 

[bigted]

SPG has not stuck to the rammer as you describe. It do leave on acasion the paper from the top of the ball tho but I find this to be of small consequence tho in the scheme of things.

To me , I like the not fumbling round with lose powder n balls in the woods.

These are not HC that I make. They are however "IN THE SPIRIT" and take no time to role when I get into the roll of the operation.

You can certainly do the correct cartridges that have no paper covering the ball/bullet, however this takes much longer and the nitrated paper is another step to take even longer so in my mind ... I would rather load lose powder n ball then take all the time before hand to fiddle with all the steps to do it correctly.

Yep I am a bit lazy. Never said I wasn't. Just in it for light weight fun and smoke n sparks.

 

[Enfield58]

SPG has not stuck to the rammer as you describe. It do leave on acasion the paper from the top of the ball tho but I find this to be of small consequence tho in the scheme of things.

To me , I like the not fumbling round with lose powder n balls in the woods.

These are not HC that I make. They are however "IN THE SPIRIT" and take no time to role when I get into the roll of the operation.

You can certainly do the correct cartridges that have no paper covering the ball/bullet, however this takes much longer and the nitrated paper is another step to take even longer so in my mind ... I would rather load lose powder n ball then take all the time before hand to fiddle with all the steps to do it correctly.

Yep I am a bit lazy. Never said I wasn't. Just in it for light weight fun and smoke n sparks.

I agree with you. I like authenticity to a certain extent but also like convenience.

There's no evidence that the original users of the C&B revolvers ever put lubricant over the ball that they loaded, when they used a flask, loose powder and ball. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't either.

I'll do anything that maximizes my shooting time and still keeps it safe. If that means using bore butter or lithium grease, so be it.

I use the rubber thread protectors with powder and ball loaded at one end for my pre-measured charges. The only disadvantage is that I can't throw the rubber thread protector away. It's not biodegradable like scraps of paper.

I decided to try the 50/50 mix of beeswax and olive oil. I got a little tired of blowing lubricant all over the place after the first shot.

Rather than putting the beeswax/olive oil lube in plastic containers I used some empty airgun pellet tins. That's another addiction that I won't get into.

The pellet tin is small enough to put in a leather pouch or haversack to carry in the field. I just hope the lube works as good as the reports have indicated.

With that said, I decided to have a little fun with the label of the lube-in-the-tin. The attached photo is a tip of the hat to the old snake-oils of yesteryear.

 

[Desperate Lee]

I love the label. Straight throw back there. My mixture is by weight but eguals out to a 40% beeswax, 40% sheep tallow, 10% olive oil. I melt it in a double boiler. Heat a flat casserole glass pan half full of water. Pour the mixture in the pan till it looks about 1/16 thick then let totally cool over night. Next day take a knife and slice around edges and pull from pan and lay on flat parchment paper. I cut out my cookies from this. They sometime tend to stick together so I sprinkle a little corn meal on top of lube surface. Afterwards I put in small plastic container with more cornmeal and shake it up a Lille. Now they don't stick. The cards I make from business cards. Nice thickness and separates powder from lube. A little time consuming but with some lithium grease on the cylinder pin wipe the face of the cylinder after a couple full cylinders and I am good to go most of my sessions.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Enfield 58,

When I said my old Tranter liked .457" balls, I was Presuming if I used paper cartridges, these would require a ball of somewhat Smaller diameter, so was enquiring as to the probable required size.
Am I correct in surmising a smaller size Is required?

Best regards,
Rich.

 

[Enfield58]

Rich,

The curling papers that I used did not add much thickness to the overall diameter to the complete cartridge.

I used the same diameter ball that had always been used before when the components (without paper) had been loaded loosely.

My Colt revolvers both use a .457" ball. That same size ball was loaded into the paper cartridge and I didn't notice any extra effort to seat the ball with the paper.

The only problems I encountered were the ones listed previously; lubricated fragments of paper sticking to the rammer, inconsistent ignition and paper residue in the chamber.

I'm not going to stop using the paper cartridges because of that but will be doing some more experimentation to solve the problem.

So I'd say of your revolver likes the .457" ball then continue using it.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Thanks for your answers, Enfield! I'll give it a go.

Best,
R.