Question for the King's musketeers among us, Brown Bess accu

[Many Klatch]

Erich, we all need to remember that the Bess was a weapon of war. Most of those hits in the video would have been effective against a rank of men standing shoulder to shoulder. Some hits would have just wounded (think amputation) and the rest would have killed outright. The Bess was designed to pour a great deal of lead at close targets reliably and accurately enough for it's intended purpose of killing and it had a bayonet for close up work.

When I first saw someone shooting a Bess in competition I laughed because everyone "knew" that a Bess wasn't accurate. I stopped laughing when the Bess shooters won the match. I got intrigued and got one myself. After a short learning curve I was able to launch those .715 ball fairly accurately.

The Bess is a fun gun to shoot, easy to maintain, reliable and reasonably accurate in the hands of a trained shooter. My Bess has been jiggered with so the trigger pull is a lot better and I have made some modifications to the sights, but otherwise it is all original.

Many Klatch

 

[jethro224]

When I saw Many Klatch shooting his Bess accurately, and having so much fun, "I got intrigued and got one myself". :thumbsup:

Using the tips and advice I got from Many Klatch and Musketman I have had a ton of fun, won shooting matches, and killed a deer with my Bess. Yep, they can be accurate.

 

[Robby]

Forgive me if this is a distraction, but this subject has brought back something I remember reading a long time ago, and was wondering if anyone else had read it as well. That is, that King George issued an edict declaring anyone caught aiming their Bess would suffer the death penalty. They were only to point straight ahead and shoot the same. I guess the idea was that if they were all aiming, the majority of them would pick out some poor soul, that for some reason stood out from the rest of the line and fill him full of holes and leave the rest of the opposing line untouched, and free to do their damage. I don't really know anything about the Bess specifically, but it is an interesting subject.
Robby

 

[ericb]

I dig, ManyKlatch. My comment about burning the Video if I shot like that was tongue in cheek, and I wanted to be fair by saying that with the same combo they were using I didn't think I could do any better. I do find Pickering's comment about using a 1 oz/16ga. ball in the .69 Musket to be interesting, and that was my reason for settling on the .662 Ball for my Charleville. It shoots very well with .005 Newsprint Cartridges - Offhand at 50 yds rapid fire will put all Balls in standard Military Silhouette, with most clustered in center of Mass. Using larger, tight patched Balls elevates the Accuracy to a whole new level, and I have done my share of playing around in that area,but I primarily am interested and enjoy shooting the Musket offhand as a Service weapon, with "GI Issue" Cartridges. I can understand using way undersize Balls in the interest of sustained volley fire, but think there is probably a happy medium, which for my Musket is the .662 Ball. I usually shoot 30-50 rds a session, and (depending on the humidity, etc) the fouling can get pretty nasty, but have never been unable to get a round down the tube & seated. I think it's important to remember & consider that the Americans, generally speaking, had a different take on Weapons & what did & didn't constitute "good shootin'". Not to say that the Brits didn't have some good shooters too - I have nothing but sheer respect for the British Soldier of the Period. They were tuff Hombres - way tuff - and the loss of the Colonies was in no way any Fault of theirs, IMHO.

Doesn't look like I said anything particularly profund above, but hey - these are just Campfire musings, which I am enjoying.

Eric

ps - FWIW - My very first Blackpowder experiences were with original 1795 .69 Springfield (original Flint) back in '67 when I was around 12 or 13. Neighbor had it in Closet, & I "borrowed" it for 4 years. Only Mould I could get at first was for .58 Roundball, so that's what I shot, with generous amounts of Patching. Accuracy was, well, never mind...

 

[Tower75]

Never heard of that. I doubt that was true. For example, if we take the Light Infantry battalions into account, the guys that were taught to skirmish and fight in pairs, they were actually taught marksmanship and how to aim.

They even held competitions. The winner gets a chicken or something like that :thumbsup:

 

[Many Klatch]

Erich, I am a member of the Jaeger Battalion of Rogers Rangers so I don't normally stand shoulder to shoulder and shoot on command. My personal opinion is that RRangers had a lot more latitude in what they stuffed down the bore of their smoothbores, remember in the early days RR furnished their own weapons and gear. RR were known to keep cartridges and buckshot in their shooting pouch for fast work but also loaded from the horn for more serious work.

The average English Hat Company shooter didn't have any options, he was going to fire by the numbers on command with issued undersize cartridges. The Grenadier companies probably fired once or twice in assault and then used the bayonet. The light companies though, I think they were encouraged to shoot accurately.

My Bess is carbine length and shoots a .715 ball, before anyone jumps in a says that all carbines were .65 caliber, Grizz from this forum has seen an original Bess carbine in .72 at the Kings Mountain museum. Carbines were not as standardized as muskets were and there were many different lengths and apparently bore size as well.

I have been making a study of how accurately Rogers Rangers and the Light Companies could have been. My conclusion is that if you were within 100 yards of a trained shooter with a Bess doing aimed fire you had a 3 in 5 chance of a wound or a kill with each shot. Now as to what the line company shooters did firing on command I have no opinion.

Many Klatch

 

[ericb]

That's a good Point, ManyKlatch. There would be a big difference between the members of a basic line Regt. comprised of relatively newer recruits, and a unit of Elite Rangers and the like, especially in the period before the Revolution, where a lot of Men therein were Americans with a lot of experience with their Weapons. Same could be said of the Tory & Loyalist Militias.

I read somewhere recently,(alas, I can't recall just where, but I'll look) an account of a group of British Soldiers (early in the War, in Boston I think) that elected to spend their afternoon off, with permission, engaging in a Marksmanship Competition. The were shooting from a Wharf, at pilings in the Water. Proof that at least some of the British Regulars took their shooting seriously, and, by the way, enjoyed it very much.

I think our comments about Paper Cartridges, tight Ball/loose Ball, Patched Balls, etc, are all generally quite valid, but it's amazing how, the more you study a subject, the more that seems to come to light, ever teaching us the folly of sterotyped generalizations...

Eric

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

Hi Tower. Perhaps the original idea of muskets was as an area weapon, as when they used matchlocks, and then they developed individual skills to take advantage of unexpected inherent accuracy. I agree that they certainly cultivated individual marksmanship...but did that happen after muskets were designed as area weapons first?

 

[ericb]

Tower, just curious - how did your Bess perform with the 100gr load? I know my Charleville actually does pretty well with 85/90gr 2F (Paper Cartridge), which, allowing for priming, probably comes close to the 110 gr service load. (The Pan is Huge...I keep meaning to determine what it actually holds)

Eric

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

Many Klatch, I've seen a Brown Bess carbine in a Richmond, VA museum which is apparently .73. Isn't that a 12 gauge by modern standards? I am reading here that Brown Besses were supposed to be .75, right? And you are shooting a carbine and hitting targets at 110 yards? Wow.

What is "the Jaeger Battalion of Roger's Rangers"? Just wondering. Apparently your group can shoot. Thanks.

 

[Tower75]

When I loaded 100 grains it was from a paper-cartridge, and I was trying for 3 rounds a minute. I managed to do it, and all shots landed on a man-sized wooden board at 50 yards.

I wasn't really doing it for accuracy, but I was impressed that with simply "point and shoot" tactics all shots hit what I aimed at.

... really want to try 160 grains... :hmm:

 

[Tower75]

...but did that happen after muskets were designed as area weapons first?

Yup, sure did. The light-bobs, or light infantry during the Napoleonic Wars were taught marksmenship and accuracy. Also, when the New Land Pattern came into service, the light-infantry pattern had a rear-sight fixed to it - evidence of "aiming" :thumbsup:

 

[Many Klatch]

Jaeger Battalion is a reenactor's group and some of them do shoot well. Like many reenactors groups there are also some that never shoot. I shoot on a regular basis with several other clubs and often show up with the Bess as my competition gun.

The biggest problem with shooting any smoothbore that doesn't have a rear sight is remembering the cheek hold and sight picture from shoot to shoot. So constant practice is required. The guys that practice the most seem to have the most luck.

Many Klatch