Questions about Kibler .58 Colonial?

[R.J.Bruce]

For those members that have purchased a Kibler Colonial kit in .58 caliber, I have two questions.

1. If you have an accurate scale, what does your rifle weigh in at, and with what type of wood? Please do not give me approximations, or bathroom scale measurements. Nor, how much your .54, or .50 caliber Colonial rifle weighs. I am only interested in the weight of the Kibler .58 caliber Colonial.

2. If you have a set of vernier calipers, what is the across the flats octagon measurement at the smallest point of the barrel's waist.

The reason for the questions is that I have always wanted a Colonial Kibler, but in a larger caliber than .58. I am curious if there is enough barrel wall thickness in the .58 caliber to have Bobby Hoyt bore the barrel out to .60 or .62 caliber? And rifle it with his famous gain twist?

Thanks, Bruce

 

[Art Caputo]

Weight Fancy/grade 2 Maple, unloaded; 8.6 pounds
Thinnest section of barrel ; .8”
GM barrel, square rifling. Purchased/delivered August 2020.
Note: Most accurate flintlock I own. Great barrel!

 

[R.J.Bruce]

Weight Fancy/grade 2 Maple, unloaded; 8.6 pounds
Thinnest section of barrel ; .8”
GM barrel, square rifling. Purchased/delivered August 2020.
Note: Most accurate flintlock I own. Great barrel!
View attachment 77024
View attachment 77025

Thanks Art. This post is very helpful.

I wonder how deep the dovetails for the barrel pin underlugs are machined? Or, are the underlugs CNC machined integrally as part of the barrel structure with the Green Mountain barrel?

I will have to go back and watch Jim's informational videos where he was announcing the changeover from Rice barrels to in house rifled & machined Green Mountain barrels.

That barrel reminds me of the first longrifle I had, a Douglas barreled, .45 caliber, brass-mounted, Lancaster-style longrifle from Golden Age Arms Company. It shot just like that at 100 yards for me on several occasions offhand over the 10 year period that I owned it.

 

[Art Caputo]

Yes the lugs are machined in.

 

[R.J.Bruce]

Yes the lugs are machined in.

Outstanding!!!

 

[Osseon]

For those members that have purchased a Kibler Colonial kit in .58 caliber, I have two questions.

1. If you have an accurate scale, what does your rifle weigh in at, and with what type of wood? Please do not give me approximations, or bathroom scale measurements. Nor, how much your .54, or .50 caliber Colonial rifle weighs. I am only interested in the weight of the Kibler .58 caliber Colonial.

2. If you have a set of vernier calipers, what is the across the flats octagon measurement at the smallest point of the barrel's waist.

The reason for the questions is that I have always wanted a Colonial Kibler, but in a larger caliber than .58. I am curious if there is enough barrel wall thickness in the .58 caliber to have Bobby Hoyt bore the barrel out to .60 or .62 caliber? And rifle it with his famous gain twist?

Thanks, Bruce

Why not talk to Jim about getting a larger caliber barrel. It might be a special order but that way he could fit the barrel to the kit and not have to worry about damaging existing barrel. There are plenty of websites that sell barrels stand alone.

 

[hanshi]

While not related to your specific question, the .58 is so close to a .62 there would be little advantage (slight weight reduction & a slightly heavier ball) to be gained for the effort ad expense. The .58 trajectory isn't as "rainbow" as .600" ball. Just curious.

 

[R.J.Bruce]

As I recall reading Jim's replies to questions asked over at ALR whenever he posted a video, he is too busy to offer any custom alterations to his kits. The only options are for substituting your wood blank for one of his, which is easy to accomplish. Others have asked about larger calibers, such as a .50 caliber SMR, and the answer has always been a flat, but polite, no.

 

[R.J.Bruce]

While not related to your specific question, the .58 is so close to a .62 there would be little advantage (slight weight reduction & a slightly heavier ball) to be gained for the effort ad expense. The .58 trajectory isn't as "rainbow" as .600" ball. Just curious.

My primary reason is not so much the increase in ball weight, but to have Bobby Hoyt install his gain twist rifling.

If my calculations are correct......
1. 60 Caliber
0.600" bore diameter
0.012" deep square bottom grooves
0.624" groove diameter

0.800" waist - 0.624" = 0.176"
0.176" ÷ 2 = 0.088" barrel wall thickness

2. .62 Caliber
0.620" bore diameter
0.012" deep square bottom grooves
0.644" groove diameter

0.800" waist - 0.644" = 0.156"
0.156" ÷ 2 = 0.078" barrel wall thickness

Since the barrel steel is certified & from Green Mountain, Mr. Hoyt might be willing to go for the .62 caliber. If so, then the weight might drop down to 8.3 pounds, depending upon wood choice. Sugar maple will weigh the most, then red maple, then cherry, then walnut.

 

[SDSmlf]

Why not start with the 50 or 54 caliber barrel option? The it opened up to 58, rather than trying to squeeze in a 62 caliber.

 

[R.J.Bruce]

Back in the day, before I quit shooting in 1994, I owned a flintlock longrifle with a Getz, .62 caliber, swamped octagon barrel that had a factory coned muzzle. Back in those days, I never worried about how much my rifles weighed. That .62 was one of the most accurate rifles that I have ever owned, matching my .45 GAA flint Lancaster. That .62 Getz barrel shot amazingly with just 75 grains of fffg black powder, and a tight, patched, 0.615" diameter ball that filled the round bottom grooves of the rifling.

That's why I would rather have a .62 caliber, or a .60 caliber, as opposed to a .58. Just nostalgia, plus it will weigh less than a .58 caliber barrel, which can't but help my osteoarthritic body at age 67. I would plan for Bobby Hoyt to have the gain twist at the muzzle quicken up to a 1:36 rate of twist. That will allow for a wide range of powder charges.

That's what Colerain is using now in their gain twist barrels, and by all accounts it's working very well.

I expect most of my shots to be 50 meters, and closer, so heavy recoiling, heavy powder charges are not what I am looking for. A 70-80 grain, ffg/fffg powder charge is all I need for 25-50 yard shots.

 

[rich pierce]

I don’t think one is going to get more accurate than a Rice barrel by going to a gain twist. A swamped barreled longrifle is not the equivalent of a dedicated bench gun with a custom target barrel. Some guys are capable of shooting into 2-3” at 100 yards with iron sights and others are not even if their guns are capable of 1” groups at that range. Those who can don’t often choose sporting weight and design rifles.

 

[Art Caputo]

Why not start with the 50 or 54 caliber barrel option? The it opened up to 58, rather than trying to squeeze in a 62 caliber.

The Kibler Colonial barrels of 50-58 cal all have identical exterior dimensions enabling interchangeability with the same stock/components. I have both a 50 cal and 58 barrels for my rifle. Fit is exact.

Owning both a 58 and a 62 caliber, I’m not so sure that the “view would be worth the climb”, machining the Kibler 58 cal to a 62 cal. If a gain twist produced additional accuracy, it would be hard to realize it, at least given the performance of my 58 Kibler barrel. I get great accuracy without swabbing for at least 12-15 shots, and it’s usually the carbon ring formation that dictates the need to swab as opposed to eroded accuracy, or difficult loading due to main barrel fouling.

 

[hanshi]

Any difference between a gain twist barrel and a uniform twist one is absolutely impossible for me discern. I have one .45 gain twist barrel and it is phenomenally accurate; but no more so than some other barrels I shoot. IMHO, gain twist is not worth any extra trouble or $$. I can't tell any difference between them and you are also unlikely to detect any. If I wanted ultimate accuracy I'd first get a straight, heavy barrel before I opted for a gain twist. If the barrel already has a gain twist when acquired that's great; but I'm not sure it's worth having one converted after the fact.

 

[R.J.Bruce]

Thanks for all the responses.

 

[rich pierce]

Bottom line, the song that comes to mind goes, “it’s your thing, do what you want to do! I can’t tell ya.... who to sock it to!”

Do what floats your boat and enjoy it. I’ve swum upstream many a time while others went with the flow.

 

[SOLANCO]

Unmentioned is what sort of hunting will you be doing? I have followed dogs on foot all day and an extra pound of gun weight is a misery. I have followed dogs in a jeep as they put up rabbits and gun weight was no issue. It's no issue still hunting unless you are hiking miles to your blind. An 8.3 pound rifle is a heavy gun for a 67 YO arthritic body to tote long distances. At age 74, I am acutely aware of this.

 

[R.J.Bruce]

Unmentioned is what sort of hunting will you be doing? I have followed dogs on foot all day and an extra pound of gun weight is a misery. I have followed dogs in a jeep as they put up rabbits and gun weight was no issue. It's no issue still hunting unless you are hiking miles to your blind. An 8.3 pound rifle is a heavy gun for a 67 YO arthritic body to tote long distances. At age 74, I am acutely aware of this.

Right now I am barely O.K.

If my plans to lose some weight work out, then the osteoarthritis might not be as bothersome as it is now.

What I am looking for in a new flintlock rifle is the following....

1. Sub-7 pounds
2. Caliber that will penetrate both gristle sheilds of a large wild hog
3. Gain twist that will utilize either a patched ball, or a light-for-caliber conical ( ie. Lee R.E.A.L)

Item Number 1:
There are no stock barrels from Colerain, Rice, or Green Mountain that fit the light weight category. Therefore, a custom modification on a standard pattern is the cheapest way to proceed. I have spoken to Scott, at Colerain, and he is willing to modify a standard, 31" long, "C"-weight Jaeger barrel into a shorter length.

Item Number 2:

Having zero experience shooting wild hogs, I have to rely on the experiences of fellow members here. Howie1968 seems to feel that his .58 caliber, Thompson/Center, Big Boar, percussion rifles loaded with patched balls shoot through the big hogs that he hunts on the regular, as well as anything else that he has hunted hogs with, centerfire, or black powder.

Most .58 caliber barrels, even swamped octagon ones, are going to make for 8-9 pound rifles.

That's why, on reflection, I have decided not to go with a Kibler Colonial kit. It will be too heavy for my long-term needs. It might work right now, but down the road, too heavy.

Item Number 3:

Gain twist. Most people have no experience with a gain twist, and those that do seem to be ambivalent about it.

OTOH, Scott at Colerain has sold close to a thousand of their gain twist barrels over the past 10 years. Little information is on the internet, or muzzleloading forums, regardless of how many of the barrels are out there being used. The two most popular calibers lately seem to be the .40 caliber, and the .58 caliber.

So, what I am thinking of doing is having a 27" long, "C"-weight, swamped, octagon-round, .58 caliber, Jaeger rifle barrel made by Colerain.

Breech = 11" long = 1.062"
Waist = 11" long = 0.776"
Flared Muzzle = 5" long = 0.956"

This would remove 1" from the breech section, 1" from the waist section, and 2" from the flared muzzle section of a 31" barrel.

Colerain is rifling all of their gain twist barrels with a rate of twist that finishes at the muzzle at 1:36". This is regardless of whether the caliber is .40, .45, .50, .54, .58, or .62. Colerain does not produce a gain twist in .36 caliber.

Originally, the gain twist was only offered in the Classic American pattern, 42" long barrel. With an approximate 2.25:1 ratio gain twist, the rate of twist at the breech in a 42" long barrel, with a 1:36" rate of twist at the muzzle, is 1:81"

The 38" long Early American barrel has an approximate 2.1:1 ratio gain twist, with a rate of twist at the breech of 1:75.6", and a rate of twist at the muzzle of 1:36".

A 27" long, custom Jaeger barrel would have an approximate 1.75:1 ratio gain twist, with a rate of twist at the breech of 1:63", and a rate of twist at the muzzle of 1:36".

I am thinking of an English Sporting Rifle style stock design to mitigate recoil. No buttplate, toeplate, sideplate, entry ramrod pipe, muzzle cap, or rear sight on the barrel. Ambidextrous, with no cheekpiece. A Lowell Haarer-style, tang-mounted, 2-screw, ghost ring, rear sight. Single trigger in a Hawken-length trigger bar. Flint breech plug with a 6" long, beavertail tang that is double-bolted to the trigger bar. English, large-bow, scroll trigger guard.

I will still, in all likelihood, have to wear a shooting vest with ambidextrous recoil-absorbing pads in both shoulders. Whether at the range, or hunting. To protect my osteoarthritic shoulders for as long as possible. And, by shifting from right-handed (my natural side), to left-handed (my almost natural side), every couple of shots.

 

[dave_person]

Hi RJ,
Those barrel wall thicknesses are very thin. I use 0.1" as a minimum guide for the waist on a swamped rifle barrel (smoothbore can be thinner as it nears the muzzle). Keep in mind, the gain twist may increase barrel pressure further up the barrel as the twist increases and causes more friction. With Kibler's profile, a 58 caliber barrel is about 0.1" wall thickness at the waist. That may be why his maximum caliber is 58. I agree with you that a short English-style hunting rifle could be your best choice. They are shaped very well to handle recoil, which is usually directed straight back into the shoulder with no twisting and little muzzle lift.

Below is an example of that good architecture and is a late flint era rifle in 54 caliber. Below it is another of early 18th century styling in 62 caliber with a 31" Rice barrel. Both rifles weigh well under 7 lbs. I urge you to put a butt plate on yours to protect the stock. I realize you probably are not concerned about historical context but the English did not build "poor boy" rifles. Simple round washers could be used for the lock bolts.

dave

 

[R.J.Bruce]

Thanks for your advice & concern Dave. I was just spitballing my ideas, and not trying to be historically correct in spelling things out.

Those are real nice examples of the types of stock design I had in mind. The rifle I had in mind to build would be a spin off of the one that Mike Brooks initially built for himself back in 2015 that he titled the "GAMECREEPER". I believe Bob McBride now owns it. It was a riff on an English poacher's rifle.

It has a black walnut stock; no cheekpiece; no buttplate; no toeplate; no sideplate; the single lock bolt is flat-headed, right-handed, the head is anchored in the lock plate, & the threads are anchored in the bolster of the breech plug; it had a Chambers Early Ketland lock; a single trigger; a very abbreviated brass triggerguard; an entry ramrod pipe; one forward ramrod pipe; and no muzzle cap. The barrel was swamped octagon in .58 caliber, about 29" long.


As far as the barrel wall thicknesses are concerned, I am basing my design against the standard thicknesses that Scott at Colerain uses for the 38", "C"-weight, .58 caliber, Early American barrels with, or without, a gain twist. Apparently, Colerain doesn't feel that they are compromising strength in any way as they have been selling barrels with a 0.772" wall thickness in the waist for some time now.