Random thread about myths and gun show tales about percussion revolvers......

[Coinneach]

Gander Mt printed that in their catalog back in the 90s , I remember seeing it back when you could actually buy a Rogers & Spencer repro from Euroarms from a Major retailer, it was all "The .44 Rogers and Spencer, one of the most accurate and prized revolvers of the Civil War. They were re-issued during the Phillipine Insurrection to stop fanatical Moro Tribesman in the 1890s"

Nowadays find me 2 people who even know what a Moro tribesman is, or the Phillipine Insurrection, but I think an ad writer at Gander just spit out some ad copy because few R&S were issued during the Civil War and I will safely assume none were used in the 1890s because they'd have been antiquated junk to soldiers at that point, and any nitrate cartridges in storage would have been 30+ years old. Not even that but try explaining to Soldiers and Officers that they're gonna carry this Civil War era front stuffer cap revolver ,and you gotta ram these paper things in and cap the nipples......they'd probably throw those pistols right on the ground

I had a Pinay girl in Cebu tell me that her grandmother used an R&S .44 revolver to fight the Japanese invaders in WW2, understandably I believed her......until I discovered my Wallet was empty and she explained that Ghosts were responsible. It was around then that I knew something wasnt right......

 

[Coinneach]

Absolutely correct, the Moros tied thongs around their testicles to elicit an adrenaline rush, used opiates and had leather body armor making them able to soak up a full cylinder of .38 Long and keep fighting, or a few 30-40's .

The shortened "Artillery " Colt P .45's were rushed over to the Phillipines in a stop gap effort to give our guys better stopping power.

I'm wondering if the thong around testicles thing would give a fella some sort of edge during ML range shoots.....asking for a friend.

 

[Coinneach]

Well even today, if you were up against a thug all doped up on drugs, nothing short of a brain hit or spinal column hit would stop them and maybe not even then. So no surprise about the doped up Moro warriors.

I remember reading that the Army wanted their .45 revolvers back. The army cavalry was pushing for it more than anything. The cavalry was still the elites of their era. They still wanted to be able to stop horses in a charge and the .38s couldn’t do that. So they came up with the story about the .38s not stopping Moro warriors. That is also why the 1911 .45 acp round duplicated the old .45 Colt round. To keep the cavalry happy.

I think the lesson was that .38cal was nothing more than a "bum stinger", and introduced for economy and recoil moderation.
The Brits went the same way post WW1 with their Webley Revolvers, then hurriedly adopted the American .45 ACP 1911's and Browning 9mm High Powers; in addition to re-introducing the .455 Webleys once WW2 got serious.

Witness how Law Enforcement have gravitated to .40 cal and some still with .45ACP after travelling the .30, .38 spec; 357 magnum route; no matter how old a Man stopping round is its still as effective as it was way back when.

 

[OldMaineWoodsman]

"Those Moros were bad dudes, man. But I was a champion wrestler in high school, and I challenged the leader. Once I beat him the rest fell in line and now, they are civilized."

Joe Biden recalling his time in the Peace Corps working with the Moros in the Philippines.

 

[earlwb]

I think the lesson was that .38cal was nothing more than a "bum stinger", and introduced for economy and recoil moderation.
The Brits went the same way post WW1 with their Webley Revolvers, then hurriedly adopted the American .45 ACP 1911's and Browning 9mm High Powers; in addition to re-introducing the .455 Webleys once WW2 got serious.

Witness how Law Enforcement have gravitated to .40 cal and some still with .45ACP after travelling the .30, .38 spec; 357 magnum route; no matter how old a Man stopping round is its still as effective as it was way back when.

Well actually law enforcement copied the FBI and went with 9x19. They all pretty much dropped the .40s&w. Spray and pray is the modern tactic with high capacity magazines.

From a statistical viewpoint the regular handgun calibers are all about equal in stopping power. That is the .32s, 380, 9mm, .357, .38, .40, 10mm, .41, .44, and .45s.

Heck the lowly .22 rimfire may have stopped more assailants than all of the other calibers combined. The .22s have been around since about 1857 or so too. It is still very popular even today.

Doing the math the old cap and ball .36 revolvers looked to be pretty weak. But that caliber was widely used to good effect in its era. It stopped a lot of men. Plus men were a lot more tough back then as compared to today.

The .31 cap and ball evolved into the modern .32s. But it was still quite popular though. Many people carried them back then too.

 

[nick_1]

The myth that cap and ball civil war revolvers were intentionally zeroed at 75yards.. sorry folks but untill one of you can show me this in writing in an army ordinance Manuel (wickkipidia is not a real source) I am not buying it. A much better observation is that the sights on these rigs are an afterthought and they suck. The only thing any of you have been able to offer is that Elmer Keith said it was true. I suppose the windage was also off intentionally to make it easier to lead a target if they were running the right direction...

 

[French Colonial]

Well actually law enforcement copied the FBI and went with 9x19. They all pretty much dropped the .40s&w. Spray and pray is the modern tactic with high capacity magazines.

From a statistical viewpoint the regular handgun calibers are all about equal in stopping power. That is the .32s, 380, 9mm, .357, .38, .40, 10mm, .41, .44, and .45s.

Heck the lowly .22 rimfire may have stopped more assailants than all of the other calibers combined. The .22s have been around since about 1857 or so too. It is still very popular even today.

Doing the math the old cap and ball .36 revolvers looked to be pretty weak. But that caliber was widely used to good effect in its era. It stopped a lot of men. Plus men were a lot more tough back then as compared to today.

The .31 cap and ball evolved into the modern .32s. But it was still quite popular though. Many people carried them back then too.

We are getting pretty far afield for a Muzzleloading forum, However, this was published a few years ago and you can google it. Covers everything from .22's up.

Defensive Handgun loads, opinions are based upon the work of Massad Ayoob, Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow

"The most effective handgun round on the market - regardless of caliber - is the Federal .357 Magnum 125 grain jacketed hollowpoint (357B). or the equally good Remington full-power 125 grain semi-jacketed hollowpoint (R357M1)."

 

[nick_1]

problem being that most folks cant shoot their way out of a wet paper bag with a .357 mag. It never matters how much noise you make . It does matter what you hit. Largest bear on record in AK was taken with a .22 long. not even a Long rifle.

 

[OldMaineWoodsman]

Law Enforcement returned to the 9mm for a variety reasons. It is easier for a diverse force to fire with control and accuracy, the ammunition is cheaper to purchase by agencies, and some loadings are greatly improved since the 1980's. A pistol chambered in 9mm will also have a longer service life than say, .357 Sig.

Many factors go into selection of a duty weapon. Caliber is not always at the top of the list.

 

[Packrat]

Just remember, You are buying the item, NOT the story

 

[SOLANCO]

I just had randomly thought about the many myths I've heard over the years...such as....

Civil War soldiers carried spare cylinders for quick reloads in battle...totally false

Rogers & Spencer revolvers were reissued during the Phillipine Insurrection to stop fanatical Moro tribesman.....I find it unlikely that the US military was digging into storage to unmothball brand new , unissued percussion revolvers made during the Civil War, in 1897 . Colt Model P's were taken out of inventory but they were still bring phased out at this time and were still around in the late 1890s.

If you don't grease your chambers you'll have chain fires........false ....people swore up and down all throughout the 1990s when I first starting shooting my first cap and baller , that I HAD to put grease over my chambers "like they did during the Civil War or you'll get a chain fire" . I've probably fired more ungreased round balls through revolvers this summer alone than the people who tried to make me believe this have in their entire lives.

"I can't imagine guys in battle pouring powder and ramming balls , it takes so long that's crazy " nitrate cartridges and capping are as fast as ejecting brass and reloading a cartridge revolver and faster for a highly skilled shooter . Very few if any user of a percussion revolver in military use was pouring powder besides the Rangers with Patersons and Walkers. Nitrate cartridges were produced in huge amounts by arsenals for both sides during the Civil War which was the largest use of percussion revolvers in any combat.

"Those things are so inaccurate they were for hand to hand fighting " False

Those Confederate revolvers were crude and made as cheap throwaway guns....False, most if not all were very well made by skilled workers. People often apply the Japanese Last Ditch weapon mentality to Confederate firearms

Forget the second cylinder. I'd sooner carry a second revolver.

 

[nick_1]

I have two spare cylinders and its not a bad system but as was done back in the day a much better system is a second and 3rd revolver...

 

[45D]

The myth that cap and ball civil war revolvers were intentionally zeroed at 75yards.. sorry folks but untill one of you can show me this in writing in an army ordinance Manuel (wickkipidia is not a real source) I am not buying it. A much better observation is that the sights on these rigs are an afterthought and they suck. The only thing any of you have been able to offer is that Elmer Keith said it was true. I suppose the windage was also off intentionally to make it easier to lead a target if they were running the right direction...

So, the sights on the revolvers are just "suggestions" while the sights on all other previous arms were intentional . . . I don't think so. That's not a good system for a "battle weapon". I don't know why it's so hard to believe men wouldn't want to have a "range" advantage for military purposes. These revolvers were new then, somebody should have suggested there use should be in "rock throwing" range. Why bother . . .

Mike

 

[nick_1]

because its just a WAG. anytime the military does anything its in writing. end of story. and to think that they would choose 75 yards as the optimal engagement distance for a handgun is borderline stupid.

 

[45D]

because its just a WAG. anytime the military does anything its in writing. end of story. and to think that they would choose 75 yards as the optimal engagement distance for a handgun is borderline stupid.

It's not a WAG if they are all the same. It's called reasonable deduction.


We're so much smarter than they were back then . . . That is the biggest myth of all!!

To wit, only recently a company has been producing a correct to design reproduction ( you can make them right or make them wrong). Except for those, all the reproductions have been wrong.

Mike

 

[nick_1]

find it in writing. otherwise its a design flaw. those do exist BTW.

 

[Bad Karma]

One can blame Hollywierd for most inaccuracies.

I don’t know… most people have vivid imaginations…

 

[Bad Karma]

find it in writing. otherwise its a design flaw. those do exist BTW.

So the military, after 30 plus inspectors have looked at the pistols in question and passed them all, just passed on a design flaw? Note also that the War department continually praised the Colt 1860 Army for its accuracy. Is it possible that they didn’t notice that every single example shot into 2” at 25 yards… 12” high?

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

He also carried 20lb of gun on him with 2 Walkers, an 1860 and a .31 pocket , but he's Clint he can do these things

He can also get 10 shots out of a 6 shot revolver

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

The myth that cap and ball civil war revolvers were intentionally zeroed at 75yards.. sorry folks but untill one of you can show me this in writing in an army ordinance Manuel (wickkipidia is not a real source) I am not buying it. A much better observation is that the sights on these rigs are an afterthought and they suck. The only thing any of you have been able to offer is that Elmer Keith said it was true. I suppose the windage was also off intentionally to make it easier to lead a target if they were running the right direction...

I'm sorry, but there is no way I'm gonna look inside a Manuel.