RANGE REPORT: Loading .62cal PRBs with cleaning / seating jag

[roundball]

Had a great 50 shot session at the range today with my .62cal rifled Flintlock and broke the 10,000 shot milestone mark with muzzleloaders in the process. That includes shot loads in .54cal(.28ga) & .62cal(.20ga) smoothbores, plus a whole lot of PRBs in .40/.45/.50/.54/.58/.62 calibers.

I used industry standard nominal size components such as precut / prelubed shooting patches and correct caliber size Treso combination cleaning/seating jags, and am pleased to report that everything has worked precisely as advertised for 10,000 shots in all those various calibers.

:thumbsup:

 

[grizzly adam]

Congratulations from another Tarheel, Roundball!

You've sure got me beat! :surrender:

 

[Lonegun1894]

I just love it when our equipment works the way it was designed to when the shooter knows what he is doing. Congrats. :bow:

 

[MrMarine79]

I used industry standard nominal size components such as precut / prelubed shooting patches and correct caliber size Treso combination cleaning/seating jags,

OH NO!!! Not the seating PRB with a Combo cleaning jag! :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :thumbsup:

CONGRATS!!

Marc

 

[Swampman]

I passed that mark years ago. It's sounds like you are lucky. I hope you remain lucky.

 

[MrMarine79]

Not to be rude or anything, but Mark, didn't you say your last post on this subject was on the other thread? Let this be your last here. Geez!

Let it rest, at least for others who heard enough of this S*$Y already. Roundball, Paul and others have tried to put it politely. :v

Marc

 

[Swampman]

Just wishing roundball luck.

 

[redwing]

Round Ball loaded with a JAG and lived to write about it. And who says all our American Heroes are dead. :bow: How did the man do it?

 

[rabjr]

cleaning/seating jags

This is such a concern to some that there must be a pile of destroyed guns and maimed or dead shooters because of it. It is a scary thought and I for one would like to know how often the above happens before I continue to use my cleaning/seating jags for loading. As I've always loaded my guns this way. The only time I do not is when I'm hunting and use the guns ramrod to reload.

 

[Swampman]

I'd like to see a seating jag. I've been in the hobby for over 30 years and I've never seen one.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I have never seen, or heard of it happening, and have been involved in safety issues and BP events, since 1976. I have been shooting Black Powder since about 1960, as best I can remember, now.

I have had one jag that was so large in diameter, for the bore it was designated by the seller as serving, that I had a hard time even getting a cleaing patch( cotton flannel) down the barrel with solvent on it. I got rid of the jag. The new one was correctly sized, and I had no problem with it, ever. A friend several years later told me I should have kept the first jag and just reduced its diameter by chucking the jag in a drill, and using a file to remove some of the brass. He was right, of course, but at the time I found out the jag was the wrong diameter, I was so mad that throwing it away was good for my soul!

I would not worry about using your jag on a rod to clean and load your smoothbore. If the jag is too large, you have already noticed it.

The jags on my 20 gauge fowler meaure .563, and .570 in diameter. ( I have a hickory rod under the barrel, and a range rod that is separate.) Both work just fine, holding onto the cleaning patches when I am cleaning the barrel, and not grabbing the patch I use with my RB loads when I use the jags on the rods to load the gun with PRB. I have never had any problem using a Jag on a rod when loading wads in shot loads.

Oh, the bore diameter on my 20 guage is actually .6275", or almost a 19 gauge barrel. I use 19 gauge wads in it, to get a good seal.

 

[roundball]

cleaning/seating jags

This is such a concern to some that there must be a pile of destroyed guns and maimed or dead shooters because of it. It is a scary thought and I for one would like to know how often the above happens before I continue to use my cleaning/seating jags for loading. As I've always loaded my guns this way. The only time I do not is when I'm hunting and use the guns ramrod to reload.

Well, Swampie...I know the feeling and if I find anyone who has actually had this happen I'll be sure to get in touch with you.
And I normally like living dangerously but I can see after 10,000 shots using standard industry tools, accessories, patches, balls, and applying focused, thoughtful attention to what I'm doing is just not very exciting...everything is so predictable and regimented...I guess I just have to accept that the next 10,000 shots will be more of the same. :shake:

 

[Stormrider51]

It seems that in every endeavor there are those who simply must take an indefensible viewpoint and then be rude about it until everybody else just stops listening to them. I'm sure Mr. Lewis believes what he says concerning a jag pulling a patched ball back out of a bore. Since his story involves not himself but another shooter one must realise that it is a second-hand anecdotal story and therefore subject to verification. None of us have seen this happen and I spent some time this week trying to reproduce it. More on that in a minute. His statement about how he passed the "milestone" long ago was uncalled for and clearly an overinflated ego speaking. I suppose he can't stand anyone knowing more than he does or feeling proud of a personal achievement. Narcisistic personality? I have never met the man so I don't know.

This entire thing about using a jag to seat a patched ball and the possible danger of doing so intrigued me. I've been shooting BP since the late-1950's and have never seen this problem. Given that I'm a fulltime gunsmith and often have customers bring me firearms with problems that don't make sense, I always try, as a first step, to reproduce the malfunction. That's what I did in this case.

The question was, "How can I make a ball follow a jag back up the barrel?" Having a lathe comes in handy sometimes. I made a set of jags in various sizes and configurations. This included way-too-small and a reverse taper where the ring on the end was larger than those closer to the muzzle. I won't go through each and every step in the testing process but here's an outline. I tried all the jags with a patch/ball combo that was a reasonable fit and could not induce the ball to follow the jag back up the bore. I then tried too-small balls and the jags. I finally managed to reproduce the problem.

My Jaeger rifle is .62 caliber. By putting on the reverse-taper jag and using a .490 ball in a .620 bore with an oversize cloth patch that extended at least 1/2" above the ball, I was able to pull the ball/patch back out. The excess patch was caught by the reverse taper jag. The whole thing popped out of the muzzle when I pulled the rod clear. There was never any doubt that something was wrong because I could feel the resistance coming out.

So, could Mr. Lewis's scenario happen? Yes. Would it happen to a shooter with a reasonable amount of experience and a well-matched ball/patch combo? Apparently not. I gave it my, pardon the pun, best shot and could only reproduce the problem by going to extreme measures.

Storm

 

[rabjr]

It seems that in every endeavor there are those who simply must take an indefensible viewpoint and then be rude about it until everybody else just stops listening to them. I'm sure Mr. Lewis believes what he says concerning a jag pulling a patched ball back out of a bore. Since his story involves not himself but another shooter one must realise that it is a second-hand anecdotal story and therefore subject to verification. None of us have seen this happen and I spent some time this week trying to reproduce it. More on that in a minute. His statement about how he passed the "milestone" long ago was uncalled for and clearly an overinflated ego speaking. I suppose he can't stand anyone knowing more than he does or feeling proud of a personal achievement. Narcisistic personality? I have never met the man so I don't know.

This entire thing about using a jag to seat a patched ball and the possible danger of doing so intrigued me. I've been shooting BP since the late-1950's and have never seen this problem. Given that I'm a fulltime gunsmith and often have customers bring me firearms with problems that don't make sense, I always try, as a first step, to reproduce the malfunction. That's what I did in this case.

The question was, "How can I make a ball follow a jag back up the barrel?" Having a lathe comes in handy sometimes. I made a set of jags in various sizes and configurations. This included way-too-small and a reverse taper where the ring on the end was larger than those closer to the muzzle. I won't go through each and every step in the testing process but here's an outline. I tried all the jags with a patch/ball combo that was a reasonable fit and could not induce the ball to follow the jag back up the bore. I then tried too-small balls and the jags. I finally managed to reproduce the problem.

My Jaeger rifle is .62 caliber. By putting on the reverse-taper jag and using a .490 ball in a .620 bore with an oversize cloth patch that extended at least 1/2" above the ball, I was able to pull the ball/patch back out. The excess patch was caught by the reverse taper jag. The whole thing popped out of the muzzle when I pulled the rod clear. There was never any doubt that something was wrong because I could feel the resistance coming out.

So, could Mr. Lewis's scenario happen? Yes. Would it happen to a shooter with a reasonable amount of experience and a well-matched ball/patch combo? Apparently not. I gave it my, pardon the pun, best shot and could only reproduce the problem by going to extreme measures.

Storm

Thank you for taking the time to do this experiment Stormrider51. :thumbsup:

 

[Claude Mathis]

I'd like to see a seating jag. I've been in the hobby for over 30 years and I've never seen one.

In keeping with our effort to educate our members - now you have. :wink:

The cupped end is designed to seat the ball.

Notice the use of the term "Cleaning/Loading Jag" in the text of this page: http://www.traditionsmuzzle.com/eShop/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=A1282

 

[paulvallandigham]

The only thing wrong with that jag, Claude, is the threaded shank is made out of the same brass that the rest of the jag is. Eventually, the brass wears out, and the threaded portion breaks off in the rod, leaving you with a stuck jag in the barrel.

I only buy jags that have steel threaded shanks on them, now. One time dealing with trying to get a stuck jag out of the barrel was enough. We solved it by shooting it out of the barrel, eventually, after trying everything else. Today, when I see another shooter with the same problem I head for my range box, to get my nipple wrench, and my FFFFg powder, right off the bat, and don't wast his or my time trying any other way to get the jag out. If I happen to have an old, or an extra jag in my box that is the same caliber, I give it to him, or sell it to him if he has the money. They used to cost only about a $1.00 each.

 

[Stormrider51]

Another point is the direction of threading when a steel shank is put into a brass jag. A right-hand thread will tend to loosen on a rod going down a right-hand bore unless the rod is allowed to rotate. It may re-tighten on the way back out but somehow this doesn't seem to happen to the same degree as it loosens. Eventually the jag may fall off and get stuck in the bore. I always take the shank out and put a drop of threadlocker on before screwing it back in.

Storm

 

[roundball]

I also get them with the steel inserts for the strength...in either case it's hard to beleieve anyone can claim to have been in muzzleloading for 30 years and not know what a combination jag is.

But then we've all seen people who used to be members here under another name who couldn't say enough bad things about mass produced MLs and TC's in particular before getting run off...then come back under a different name and be opening posts left and right about how great TC MLs are.

 

[Stormrider51]

Okay, I lived during the period when John Baird condemned anything with the TC name on it. To an extent he was right. Where in history can you find a rifle that needs two different sized jags to clean? We have moved on from that. Now the conflict is between "traditional" and "inline" firearms. I personally draw the line there. I refuse to work on inline muzzleloaders in my shop. Right or wrong? I don't know. It is a choice I made.

Storm

 

[Geraldo]

Obviously I missed something, and it sounds as though I'm the better for it.