RANGE REPORT: Loading .62cal PRBs with cleaning / seating jag

[xxgrampa]

O.K. roundball,

read your post a couple of times. just what do you have against 32's and 36's??

they seemed to be conspicuous by their absense..
don't you care about their feelings?? :grin:

..ttfn..grampa..

 

[MrMarine79]

Thanks Claude.

That was extremely educational!

:thumbsup:

 

[Tumblernotch]

Yep! That's one of those seating jags alright! That's about the only kind I've seen commercially sold. Since I got a lathe, I make all my own now as well as a few I sell to club members. I also make almost all with a flat face so as to wipe the breech face better. And I load with those too. The beauty of having a lathe to make these is the fact that you can customize the jags to suit the individual gun and type of projectile.

BTW, I use red Locktite on the threaded shank and they don't come loose.

:thumbsup:

 

[Dphar]

I also get them with the steel inserts for the strength...in either case it's hard to beleieve anyone can claim to have been in muzzleloading for 30 years and not know what a combination jag is.

But then we've all seen people who used to be members here under another name who couldn't say enough bad things about mass produced MLs and TC's in particular before getting run off...then come back under a different name and be opening posts left and right about how great TC MLs are.

I have been in MLing for over 40 years and have never had anyone refer to jags as loading jags. At least that I can recall.
People SELLING stuff call things all sorts of silly names. Jags are designed to clean bores. If you want to seat loads with one I really don't care. But we need to understand that under certain circumstances it can be a problem. Either just a PITA or a potential safety issue from reports read on this site.

Since three people on the other thread, myself and 2 others, had either had problems to some degree or witnessed them its not something terribly rare it would seem.

Someone reports someone having a problem that could be LIFE THREATENING. So instead of seeing it for what it OBVIOUSLY IS due to 2 other people reporting that this IS possible. People take it as an attack on them personally and go to war with the guy who witnessed this. Telling him that the thing he witnessed was ENTIRELY the fault of the user. That anyone who would have such a problem was dumb or inexperienced or both. That the report was false, etc, etc. The ball had to be too loose. Stuff they could not possibly know and apparently did not really understand in some cases. Thus insulting people, making assumptions, inferring falsehoods etc.
So people need to ask themselves. Is what was reported possible? Apparently it is. Could it cause probelms in certain circumstances? Apparently it did.

Rather than try to recreate the problem to see if its possible some act like a bunch of HS kids or soccer fans.

In shooting problems often only crop up 1 in 10000 or 1 in 100000 shots. Loading manuals (big name ones) for brass suppository guns actually have loads that are PROVEN, by returns to at least 2 arms makers, to damage guns in the caliber and case capacity listed when loaded as directed. Why? Because the people who did the testing for the manual failed to shoot the load enough to find the problem. In this case it may take 1000 rounds (though sometimes less) to become apparent to the shooter/gun owner. I used to do firearms warranty inspections BTW.
So just because 10 people do something for 5 or 10 or 20 years does not mean that 100 people can do the same thing and not have one or more people have some "difficulty". 10 people shooting 5000-10000 rounds is 10% or 100 doing the same thing.
Problems with BPCRs and low end smokeless powder loads did not become really apparent until 10s of thousands of shooters started using the cartridges with smokeless. Then there was a rash of blown firearms OFTEN FROM UNDERLOADING. It was undetectable or simply written off as old guns blowing up with low numbers of people shooting old guns. But 20000 or more shooters soon had modern repros doing the same thing in much larger numbers. Can't blame old steel anymore...
I mention this because its valid. It has to do with the number of people engaged in an activity. If it happens once in 100000 shots it may never happen with 10 people shooting. But if you have 10000 people engaging in the activity then we reach the 100000 much sooner and things start to show up.
From what I read here a person could shoot his entire life and not have a problem with a jag catching a patch. But multiply that one shooter by 1000 or 10000 then throw in infinite variables in bore size, ball size, jag diameter and patch thickness and then things look different.
People who have been poo-pooing this and trying to kill the messenger are simply showing a lack of understanding. Just because in YOUR experience it has never happened it does not mean that its impossible and has not happened to someone else.
It is easy to see people on the internet as neophytes or beginners when they point out something that another who has been at it for sometime has not experienced. My experience is different from the people reading this. But it is extensive and valid even if it disagrees in some way with the readers experiences to a greater or lesser extent.
From MY experiences I REALLY dislike being at a shoot or range where people are firing mass produced MLs or percussion guns with drum and nipples. Both worry me and I REALLY avoid being on the drum side of the drum and nipple guns.
I have valid reasons for both dislikes. Both go back 30+ years.
It way past bedtime in Montana.
Dan

 

[huntman58]

Obviously I missed something, and it sounds as though I'm the better for it.

Ya just may be :wink:

 

[Swampman]

Thanks for your common sense reply.

"I REALLY dislike being at a shoot or range where people are firing mass produced MLs or percussion guns with drum and nipples."

The same danger exist when folks insist on removing their vent liner each time for cleaning. Sooner or later it's probably going to blow out, and it may hit the shooter to your right. People will tell you it's perfectly safe and they do it all the time. One dead, one fine gun ruined, or one eye lost is one too many for me.

 

[roundball]

O.K. roundball,

read your post a couple of times. just what do you have against 32's and 36's??

they seemed to be conspicuous by their absense..
don't you care about their feelings?? :grin:

..ttfn..grampa..

Nothing against them...just have to draw the line somewhere and I've got all I "need"...and if you lived closer I'd give you a handfull of balls for each...a friend gave me a box of several ML items after a friend of his had passed away...had a handfull of cast balls is several different calibers...I shot the .490s yesterday

 

[roundball]

Yep! That's one of those seating jags alright! That's about the only kind I've seen commercially sold. Since I got a lathe, I make all my own now as well as a few I sell to club members. I also make almost all with a flat face so as to wipe the breech face better. And I load with those too. The beauty of having a lathe to make these is the fact that you can customize the jags to suit the individual gun and type of projectile.

BTW, I use red Locktite on the threaded shank and they don't come loose.

:thumbsup:

When I needed to get a few .62cal jags, I immediately realized they were too tight, I assume because GM's .62cals are actually .610s, not .620s.
Not having a lathe, I screwed them onto the end of a section of ramrod and chucked that into a drill...then laid my belt sander on it's back and turned it on...turned on the drill and just lightly touched the jag to the belt sander a couple of times and all was well

 

[Swampman]

The ignore feature on this forum is awesome.

 

[Halftail]

The ignore feature on this forum is awesome.

Huh?
Did someone say something :rotf:

 

[billandbeaufort]

Thanks for your common sense reply.

"I REALLY dislike being at a shoot or range where people are firing mass produced MLs or percussion guns with drum and nipples."

The same danger exist when folks insist on removing their vent liner each time for cleaning. Sooner or later it's probably going to blow out, and it may hit the shooter to your right. People will tell you it's perfectly safe and they do it all the time. One dead, one fine gun ruined, or one eye lost is one too many for me.

Hey Mark, I see that you feel worried about mass produced percussion cap drum rifles. I have a Euro-Arms 1864 "Springfield". Is this one I should worry about? I assume the worry is the screwed in drum blasting out to my right when the threads let go? Has this actualy happened? Thanks, B&B

 

[Tumblernotch]

That'll work! :thumbsup: Before I had a lathe, I used to chuck stuff in my drill press and do that. My problem there was the fact that my DP didn't have a drawbar and if I put just a little pressure against the work, the Morse taper chuck would work loose and it and whatever I was working on would fall out. :redface:

 

[Tumblernotch]

Don't worry about the Springfield muskets. They have a bolster instead of a drum. The '55 and '61 models have cleanout screws, but they're no problem as long as you make sure they're screwed in good.

 

[Swampman]

The size of the cleaning jag is irrelevent.

 

[roundball]

Thanks for your common sense reply.

"I REALLY dislike being at a shoot or range where people are firing mass produced MLs or percussion guns with drum and nipples."

The same danger exist when folks insist on removing their vent liner each time for cleaning. Sooner or later it's probably going to blow out, and it may hit the shooter to your right. People will tell you it's perfectly safe and they do it all the time. One dead, one fine gun ruined, or one eye lost is one too many for me.

Hey Mark, I see that you feel worried about mass produced percussion cap drum rifles. I have a Euro-Arms 1864 "Springfield". Is this one I should worry about? I assume the worry is the screwed in drum blasting out to my right when the threads let go? Has this actualy happened? Thanks, B&B

B&B, we have to take everything we read on the Internet with a grain of salt...just because someone voices an opinion with a lot of firmness and gloom and doom about losing eyes, etc, does not automatically give those opinions merit at all.

Taking mass produced Flintlocks since they were mentioned, and specifically TCs for example, anyone who has experience with TC Flintlocks knows that the threads on a stainless 1/4"x28 vent liner are precisely the same as the threads on TC's stainless 1/4"x28 nipples.

They both screw into the same threaded seats in the same blocks of steel that the breechplugs are made from.

It is common practice to remove a nipple during cleaning, and removing a vent liner is no different whatsoever.

And finally, a vent liner has an even greater degree of safety over a nipple, because the side of the pan is tightened up against the bottom of the vent liner, contributing to holding it in place.

So if you follow the logic about "vent liners blowing out from cleaning", then you'd have to be even more worried about nipples blowing out given the industry wide practice of removing them for cleaning.

Grain of salt... :wink:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Good observation, RoundBall. I agree. I have seen a nipple go, but it turned out that an american threaded nipple had been installed in a breechblock that was tapped for a metric thread. It never fit right in the first place. A correct sized nipple was bought and installed, and the gun fired just fine. But in over 45 years of shooting and watching other shooters fire BP rifles, that is the only " Destruct " I have witnessed. Its cause was easily diagnosed, and the only lesson learned was NOT to trust whatever the manufacturer did, or said about any gun you buy. Do your own inspection, and do your own measuring. This is less a problem with American manufacturered firearms, but there are still problems with even some of them. :hatsoff:

 

[MrMarine79]

It is common practice to remove a nipple during cleaning, and removing a vent liner is no different whatsoever.


Did I just hear a piece of the sky falling over there to my right? :rotf:

(grain of salt) :hmm:

 

[Stormrider51]

Another thing to consider is rust. I've seen a goodly number of rifles with rust on the threads of the drum and/or nipple when I removed them. Some had more than others. One or two made my hair stand on end. If that rust is left to do its thing long enough the entire assembly is weakened and a blow-out becomes only a matter of time. While I have never seen a properly sized patched ball drawn back up a bore by the ramrod, I have seen a drum that was blown out. The rifle was brought to me for repair. It was a .45 cal with a 13/16" barrel with a twist of 1:66". The owner stated that he thinks he double charged. He was shooting a .440 PRB and 60 grains of 3Fg. The double charge made it 120 grains. The rifle was approximately 12 years old and the while the nipple had been removed when cleaning the rifle each time (the owner used a flush nipple), the drum had never been removed. On examination I noticed that there was a lot of rust visible where the drum used to be. The breech plug stopped just behind where the drum had rested and so the drum did not screw into the plug.

Here's what I THINK happened. A 13/16" barrel equals .8125". Subtract .450 for the bore. That leaves .3625". Divide that by 2 and you have a barrel wall thickness of just over .181". That's not much steel for that drum to be screwed into considering that it was a 7/16" (.4375") and a threaded object attains maximum holding power when depth equals diameter. It wasn't anywhere near that ratio. Still, the thing had held together for 12 years. I suspect that the combination of the relatively thin barrel wall, the overcharge, and longterm damage by rust caused the failure. Note that the nipple that had been removed repeatedly for cleaning did not fail. The drum that had never been removed did so.

An examination of one incident is not conclusive evidence of anything. The facts in this case do give me cause to wonder if there is any more danger in removing a drum for cleaning than there is leaving it over a period of years. Removal and careful replacement will cause very minimal wear to threads, especially if oil is applied before reinstallation. I'll continue to go with a thorough cleaning and removal of the drum or vent liner.

Storm

 

[Geraldo]

Obviously I missed something, and it sounds as though I'm the better for it.

Ya just may be :wink:

I stumbled across the other thread, so I am no longer blissfully ignorant.

The old medical saying is, "When you see hoofprints, look for horses, not zebras."

Short starting only through inattention, or the mother of all coincidences (which has the advantage of being spun as equiment failure instead of shooter error)?

 

[Swampman]

I think it was just your ego expanding.