RANGE REPORT: Loading .62cal PRBs with cleaning / seating jag

[Swampman]

No short starter was used. It wasn't equipment failure. It was improper use of equipment. When you use an inanimate object incorrectly, your begging for trouble. It's the same way with removing your touch hole liner to clean your gun. It isn't designed to be removed except for replacement. When it goes through your friends head, you'll be saying it was the manuf. fault.

People never want to admit they were doing dumb stuff. They just sue the poor fellow that made the item they abused.

 

[roundball]

Its like watching a train wreck in slow motion... :rotf:

 

[Tumblernotch]

"The size of the cleaning jag is irrelevent."

Now just what does that have to do with whether or not B&B should worry about his Springfield?


But since you made the above statement (for whatever reason), the size of a cleaning jag is always relevant. If it's too big, it won't go in. Too small and that little piece of cotton will fall off. :grin:

 

[Dphar]

It is common practice to remove a nipple during cleaning, and removing a vent liner is no different whatsoever.


Did I just hear a piece of the sky falling over there to my right? :rotf:

(grain of salt) :hmm:

Until the threads gas cut and it starts to leak. I stopped messing with sloppily installed liners almost 30 years ago. They are all permanently installed now. If they need removing I use a broken screw extractor and make a new liner.
I would point out that nipples will leak gas as well if screwed into a poorly designed breech or drum with no flat for them to seat on properly.

Dan

 

[Geraldo]

People never want to admit they were doing dumb stuff.

My point exactly.

They just sue the poor fellow that made the item they abused.

This is really no different than blaming equipment that doesn't fail, is it? Blame the manufacturer or blame the jag, but in no way was it the fault of the shooter. :bull: Starter or not, I think he pushed it a few inches into the barrel and disengaged his brain. Even if his jag pulled it out, he failed to notice that the rod had something attached to it and didn't move as freely as it should.

I responded to people's personal disasters for 20 years, and that sad truth is that the vast majority were not caused by manufacturer defects or space aliens, but by the people involved. If you work around dangerous equipment, and firearms definately fill that bill, you had better have your head in the game at all times.

 

[Dphar]

Thanks for your common sense reply.

"I REALLY dislike being at a shoot or range where people are firing mass produced MLs or percussion guns with drum and nipples."

The same danger exist when folks insist on removing their vent liner each time for cleaning. Sooner or later it's probably going to blow out, and it may hit the shooter to your right. People will tell you it's perfectly safe and they do it all the time. One dead, one fine gun ruined, or one eye lost is one too many for me.

Hey Mark, I see that you feel worried about mass produced percussion cap drum rifles. I have a Euro-Arms 1864 "Springfield". Is this one I should worry about? I assume the worry is the screwed in drum blasting out to my right when the threads let go? Has this actualy happened? Thanks, B&B

Blown nipples, gas cut vent liners and drums breaking off and exiting at some force. I have had all these things happen to me over the years. Mostly when I was under 30. I learned from each one. Since I have no idea how well some drum and nipple has been installed I avoid being on that side of the gun when its being fired.
I am not the only one to have properly threaded nipples blow out... A friend blew one out of a Bill Large Hawken breech. He was neither a neophyte or a fool. He switched to shooting flintlock. Carried little black spots on from imbedded powder fouling in his nose for the rest of his life. To keep the nipple threads from leaking there must be a flat for them to screw against. I ended up making a cutter to do this since breeches on the market sometimes lack this feature.
I would also point out that it is much easier to get a nipple tight enough to seal with a nipple wrench than it is to properly torque a large diameter vent liner with a screw driver, assuming it HAS a place to seal against.

Drums are often made of marginal materials and can crystalize from repeated hammer blows and simply fracture. Care in fitting the drum to the lockplate will reduce this possibility but I simply won't make drum and nipple guns.
Period.
Its a makeshift way of doing things that simply adds a weak point to the breeching.
Mass produced MLs are assembled in many cases by cheap labor and/or people who do not understand how the lock is supposed to work. They tend to do things like go off 1/2 cocked or repeatedly fail to go off when they are supposed to. People also tend to shoot "replica" powders from these and I worry about the fouling making a "crawdad hole" that eventually vents to the outside of the barrel or breech.
This stuff ALL is going on out there.
So...
"I REALLY dislike being at a shoot or range where people are firing mass produced MLs or percussion guns with drum and nipples."
I learn from experience or at least try too.
Dan

 

[MrMarine79]

I think it was just your ego expanding.

:bull:


:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:


Good one Mark. If only you knew..

 

[KHickam]

Dan - Me too - I had a very bad - could have been fatal - experience with a drum and nipple gun - Dixie Gun Works - back in my early 20s - I had one - and I shot a lot (nothing changes I guess) and I had one let go - It wasn't any extreme load either just a 80 gr FFg load with .490 PRB - I was shooting at a target and - after the burning sensation and stuff - burning or semi-burning FFg embedded in my skin - shaking from a near death experience, a trip to the emergency room on base - and trying to explain what happened to me in a line of duty report (I was in the military then) after I got done was enough for me. Being a lefthanded shooter with a right handed gun - and finding the drum lodged in a big ponderosa pine tree a few feet away - told me how close I could have been to being killed - the scars have faded but for a long time I had visible pepper marks in my face and neck. :cursing:

 

[Swampman]

"or blame the jag"

Again the cleaning jag (inanimate object) is safe to use as designed. When used for something for which it isn't designed (loading)it isn't safe.

That ball only has to move 1/4" off the powder. This chap noticed it, and so his life wasn't ruined.

 

[roundball]

Well, I think its clear that the "problems" are really not purvasive problems at all and cannot be characterized with wide-sweeping allegations that "cleaning jags are very dangerous and should not be used"...or that "vent liners should not be removed for cleaning", etc.

People are always the biggest problem in any equation...their particular choice and/or use of components...their particular methods and procedures...and their occasional lack of attention to or comprehension of what they're doing or what just happened at some point in time.

Based on my own track record, using my choice of quality industry standard nominal caliber size componets and very regimented detailed cleaning & lubing methods...there's no reason I shouldn't expect to run another 10,000 error free shots...the first 50 are already behind me.

:thumbsup:

 

[billandbeaufort]

"or blame the jag"

Again the cleaning jag (inanimate object) is safe to use as designed. When used for something for which it isn't designed (loading)it isn't safe.

That ball only has to move 1/4" off the powder. This chap noticed it, and so his life wasn't ruined.

Mark, This all makes me think that my minies must be safer than patched ball! :grin:

 

[billandbeaufort]

Dan - Me too - I had a very bad - could have been fatal - experience with a drum and nipple gun - Dixie Gun Works - back in my early 20s - I had one - and I shot a lot (nothing changes I guess) and I had one let go - It wasn't any extreme load either just a 80 gr FFg load with .490 PRB - I was shooting at a target and - after the burning sensation and stuff - burning or semi-burning FFg embedded in my skin - shaking from a near death experience, a trip to the emergency room on base - and trying to explain what happened to me in a line of duty report (I was in the military then) after I got done was enough for me. Being a lefthanded shooter with a right handed gun - and finding the drum lodged in a big ponderosa pine tree a few feet away - told me how close I could have been to being killed - the scars have faded but for a long time I had visible pepper marks in my face and neck. :cursing:

KHickam, Mark has been saying that improper use is the reason for more incidents that improper manufacture. Now I'm new to this sport so don't bushwack me but wouldn't a lefty using a right hand gun be "improper use?" Glad your Ok. B&B

 

[billandbeaufort]

Thanks for your common sense reply.

"I REALLY dislike being at a shoot or range where people are firing mass produced MLs or percussion guns with drum and nipples."

The same danger exist when folks insist on removing their vent liner each time for cleaning. Sooner or later it's probably going to blow out, and it may hit the shooter to your right. People will tell you it's perfectly safe and they do it all the time. One dead, one fine gun ruined, or one eye lost is one too many for me.

Hey Mark, I see that you feel worried about mass produced percussion cap drum rifles. I have a Euro-Arms 1864 "Springfield". Is this one I should worry about? I assume the worry is the screwed in drum blasting out to my right when the threads let go? Has this actualy happened? Thanks, B&B

Blown nipples, gas cut vent liners and drums breaking off and exiting at some force. I have had all these things happen to me over the years. Mostly when I was under 30. I learned from each one. Since I have no idea how well some drum and nipple has been installed I avoid being on that side of the gun when its being fired.
I am not the only one to have properly threaded nipples blow out... A friend blew one out of a Bill Large Hawken breech. He was neither a neophyte or a fool. He switched to shooting flintlock. Carried little black spots on from imbedded powder fouling in his nose for the rest of his life. To keep the nipple threads from leaking there must be a flat for them to screw against. I ended up making a cutter to do this since breeches on the market sometimes lack this feature.
I would also point out that it is much easier to get a nipple tight enough to seal with a nipple wrench than it is to properly torque a large diameter vent liner with a screw driver, assuming it HAS a place to seal against.

Drums are often made of marginal materials and can crystalize from repeated hammer blows and simply fracture. Care in fitting the drum to the lockplate will reduce this possibility but I simply won't make drum and nipple guns.
Period.
Its a makeshift way of doing things that simply adds a weak point to the breeching.
Mass produced MLs are assembled in many cases by cheap labor and/or people who do not understand how the lock is supposed to work. They tend to do things like go off 1/2 cocked or repeatedly fail to go off when they are supposed to. People also tend to shoot "replica" powders from these and I worry about the fouling making a "crawdad hole" that eventually vents to the outside of the barrel or breech.
This stuff ALL is going on out there.
So...
"I REALLY dislike being at a shoot or range where people are firing mass produced MLs or percussion guns with drum and nipples."
I learn from experience or at least try too.
Dan

What is a real shame here is that we have no records from the civil war where more than half a million "mass produced" nipple & drum guns were used, much of the time by inexperienced shooters! Or do we? Perhaps there are records somewhere, I'm sure if I brought a blown up gun to my Lieutennant he would write down the rason I requested a new rifle. After all they were $14! :wink:

 

[KHickam]

Yes, but in 85-86 there were few left handed guns that an A1C (E-3 for non Air Force guys) could afford.

This was a older Dixie gun works tenn mtn rifle with 7/8 barrel in .50 cal. The drum failed - it could have been over torqued by the previous owner (I bought it used) or the metal may have had a void - or corrosion could have been a player - or all of the above - the metal appeared crystalized to me.

Point is I was shooting it with a stiff load but not an unsafe one and it failed - I have never owned another percussion gun period.

 

[Swampman]

The quality of those rifle was 100 times better than the currently produced replicas. They were assembled by actual craftsmen.

Some of the early replicas didn't even have threaded drums. They were just pressed into the barrel.

 

[Halftail]

I was at a shoot one time and this Dude had on a Tri-cornered hat and another guy walked by it and got one of the tri's stuck in his eye....Messy but not the end.He had a ball starter in his ass pocket and he only fell over and got the starter stuck..... :youcrazy: ...well......you know where. :shake: It happened,it's a real story.Your reading it so it must be true. :youcrazy:

 

[roundball]

I was at a shoot one time and this Dude had on a Tri-cornered hat and another guy walked by it and got one of the tri's stuck in his eye....Messy but not the end.He had a ball starter in his ass pocket and he only fell over and got the starter stuck..... :youcrazy: ...well......you know where. :shake: It happened,it's a real story.Your reading it so it must be true. :youcrazy:

:thumbsup:

 

[MrMarine79]

Well said Roundball.

:thumbsup:

 

[Claude Mathis]

I was at a shoot one time and this Dude had on a Tri-cornered hat and another guy walked by it and got one of the tri's stuck in his eye....Messy but not the end.He had a ball starter in his ass pocket and he only fell over and got the starter stuck..... :youcrazy: ...well......you know where. :shake: It happened,it's a real story.Your reading it so it must be true. :youcrazy:

It's true... I was the "Dude" in the tri-corn. :redface:

 

[roundball]

I was at a shoot one time and this Dude had on a Tri-cornered hat and another guy walked by it and got one of the tri's stuck in his eye....Messy but not the end.He had a ball starter in his ass pocket and he only fell over and got the starter stuck..... :youcrazy: ...well......you know where. :shake: It happened,it's a real story.Your reading it so it must be true. :youcrazy:

It's true... I was the "Dude" in the tri-corn. :redface:

OK...but come clean all the way...was the point to the front, the rear, or off to one side???
That's really the underlying question here...