Range Report: Uberti Whitneyville Dragoon

[oldwolf]

I was able to get the range yesterday to try out this new revolver. Overall I was pleased with the results, all problems had I believe can be rectified, especially with a little input from you guys.

1) Target was set at 15 yards. With ball, wad OP, and 35 grains powder, the balls consistently hit 8” high and 1” to the right. This was repeated with 40 grain loads and the POI results were nearly the same.

2) With the 35 grain loads the loading arm fell 40% to 50% of the time. With the 40 grain loads the loading arm fell 100% of the time.

3) #11 caps were a little large for the nipples, but a slight squeeze to reshape them worked to keep them on.

4) The trigger is great on this gun. Are they all great like this from the factory?

5) All I had were .457 balls for my ROA, so I was a little concerned about using them in this gun, since .454 balls are recommended. The worry was unfounded however, as the leverage offered by the Dragoon design easily allowed me to seat the balls.

Site Issue: The sights are set high for 15 yard shooting, but it is probably dead on at 75 or 100 yards though. :wink: Since most of my shooting will be between 15 and 50 yards, I would like to adjust the sights. Because the POI is high, I will need to deepen the hammer notch a little, even though doing anything like this to a beautiful pistol such as this bothers me. I will just have to be very careful and take little off at a time. The windage error is not that bad and I can live with it for a while I suppose. Still, 1 inch to the right at 15 yards is probably 3 inches or so at 50 yards, so maybe I can adjust the hammer notch to the left a little. What procedure and tools do you guys recommend to do these hammer notch adjustments?

Loading Arm Issue: The retaining spring on the loading arm is very stout, so I was surprised this issue even happened. I suppose an adjustment to the angle of the stationary loading arm clip that is attached to the barrel is needed. My guess is that not much material removal is required, just an angle change is in order. Again, what procedure do you guys recommend to accomplish this?

Undersized Nipple Issue: Buying new after market nipples will likely correct this, or using #10 if they are not too tight. This is an easy problem and not too serious. For now I will just reshape the caps prior to use.

Other Notes:
Cleaning up was actually pretty easy since you can remove the barrel from the grip frame. Hot water easily cleaned up the barrel and cylinder, and I used a toothbrush and warm water dripping from the faucet to clean the hammer and cylinder pin with out getting water inside the action. I found you can do this if you hold the action upside down so the fouled water drains away from the internal mechanism.

This is my first Italian gun, and the quality is quite impressive imho. I wasn’t sure what to expect, only having American made arms in my closet, but I think Sam Colt would be proud to have his name on this one.
:hatsoff:

I’m looking forward to your advice concerning these issues, and to the next time I get to take this revolver to the range.

Oldwolf - Over and Out :v

 

[Bob Riegl]

:hmm: Please my friend don't re-shape caps that's not really very safe. If the #10's are tough to put on just chuck then into a variable speed drill and use a small file a take enough off to fit the #10's without any "reshaping or pushing", I'd like you to keep you fingerprints intact--- :v if you know what I mean----wink-wink :thumbsup:

 

[oldwolf]

Thanks for the tip but that is news to me. I have read on this forum of this "technique" often enough to think it was accepted practice.

Will wait to see what others think.

Regards - O/W

 

[Rebel]

Well, i suppose a cap could go off while squeezing it but i have been doing it for over 30 years and have never had it happen.

 

[Long Johns Wolf]

Congrats on your new pistol. To lower POI you can try a lighter ball with the same loads but the impact is probably marginal only. To get POA and POI closer together you may want to consider a new higher front sight. From a piece of brass I would machine a new one, approx. 2 mm higher. These days most of the front sights are no longer soldered but glued into a little slot in the barrel. To remove the old sight put the barrel into your wife's oven at 250 °C and you can probably remove it after 10 mins in that heat (if not it is a case for your smith). Then use some epoxy to glue the new & higher front sight into place. You could install the new sight slightly canted the right. This will offset the windage issue.
Alternatively you open the notch of the hammer with a little file, just a mite at the time. Best time to do that is when you are on the range.
Enjoy shooting that pistol.
Long Johns Wolf

 

[brubincam]

how do you get a lighter ball?when they are sized and trimmed upon squeezing them into the cylinder? :nono: :nono: :nono:

 

[oldwolf]

I thought that maybe he was thinking I was shooting a conical bullet.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Your issues are varied, and I will try to address what I can in this post before going to a Parent's Meeting at the local Boy Scout Troop. Whatever I miss, I'll get in the follow-up post!

As far as caps are concerned, sometimes just changing brands does the trick, as not all #11 caps are the same size! I've had good results with CCI #11 Magnum caps on all of my Uberti's (currently own 4, with another soon on it's way). Sometimes Remington #11's fall off during recoil. The CCI's tend to stay put on the nipple. Some guys on the Forum are more "Mr. Fixit" than I am...I just shoot 'em out of the box! If your nipples are really "screwed-up", they may be size 10 3/4...and yes caps from RWS will solve this problem without the need of grinding your nipples!

As far as the sights issue goes, my Walker shoots exactly 6.5 inches high at 25 yards. From your results I would think that your Dragoon will shoot to the same point of aim. I have gotten used to where the Walker hits and have decided to leave the sights alone, especially after hitting the 135 yard gong at one of the clubs that I belong too. If you are going to shoot at 50 yards quite often, I would set the sights (new front blade & then file at the range) to this 50 yard distance. This will tell you RIGHT AWAY if you took too much "meat" off of the hammer on one side or the other, and will do so IN TIME to make a final correction BEFORE it's too late! The reason that I say this is that the difference in POA vs. POI will be more apparent at the greater distance! Go slow and you'll be fine! My Walker was blessed with being "dead-on" left-to-right, so I opted to leave it alone!

As far as the lever dropping, with use and a little tightening of the lever screw, this problem almost goes away, even with 50 grains in the Walker! Some folks do like to bend the retaining spring tab a little to lessen the lever-drop. This works too, although I've never done it so I can't recommend exactly how much to do it!

As far as the trigger goes, I too find that I like it just as it comes out of the box! Clean, crisp, no creep at all! This and the 9" barrel along with a longer sight picture led me to utilize my Walker in competition. I usually take first place in the revolver division, and have won the entire match shooting against single-shot pistols with micrometer adjustable sights. I say this not to brag, just to give you an idea of where I'm coming from and the results that I've obtained.

I would use 40 or 45 grains of 3Fg Goex in your Dragoon, for the cylinder is almost as big or might be the same size as my Walker, as the Whitneyville was a transition model before the 1st model Dragoon came into being. I use a 50 grain charge in the Walker because it shoots so well with that loading. The balls don't jump into the forcing cone, and this results in increased accuracy. 50 grains of 3F, a wonder-wad and then the .454 ball.

One more thought about the 1 inch at 15 yards...BEFORE you file the hammer, make sure that you're only going to use .457 balls, for even the difference of the two sizes might cause a small difference in POI!

Gotta go to the meeting...be back in a couple of hours.

Dave

 

[mykeal]

4) The trigger is great on this gun. Are they all great like this from the factory?

No. Most need a little work (perhaps just several rounds) to smooth out. A few are great out of the box, and a few are miserable.

Site Issue: What procedure and tools do you guys recommend to do these hammer notch adjustments?

Thin flat metal file, patience and lots of testing between filings. Suggest you emphasize the left side of the notch to help with the windage problem.

However, try .451's first. They are lighter, and...it's already been said.

Loading Arm Issue:Again, what procedure do you guys recommend to accomplish this?

See smokin .50's excellent post.

Undersized Nipple Issue: Buying new after market nipples will likely correct this, or using #10 if they are not too tight. This is an easy problem and not too serious. For now I will just reshape the caps prior to use.

See smokin .50's quote again.

I don't agree that pinching caps is unsafe, or even not quite safe. Never had a problem in 30+ years, never heard of anyone else having a problem.

 

[oldwolf]

Thanks for all the pointers.

I checked my loading arm screw and it is loose enough to turn with my finger. I'll tighten it and use a little loctite. Is not the "floppy" arm a fairly common problem with this type revolver? I think I remember reading about someone who altered the engagement angle for a fix. But, if tightening the screw(s) takes care of it, I'll be happy. Although the pivot screw (not the ram screw) appears to just tighten into the barrel flange, so I don't see how this will help.

I like the idea of a taller front sight, just so that I don't have to alter the hammer notch. That seems to be much more difficult that working the notch though, so I'll have to think about that for a while before I do anything.

I also need to first shoot it further than 15 yards I think. The POI may be lower at 25 and 50 yards. If so, I may not need to do anything for the elevation as long as I learn the "hold under" at shorter ranges.

Does anyone know what range the original revolvers (built in 1847) were supposed to be sighted in to from the factory?

Also, my understanding is the Whitneyville has the same cylinder as the later Dragoons, and that the Walker had the 60 grain capacity cylinder. The Dragoons (and my Whitneyville) are supposed to be 50 grain cylinders, Someone correct me if I am wrong.

The .451 ball being lighter, would shoot higher at 15 yards I believe, since it would likely launch at a higher MV. Why are you saying it would shoot lower at 15 yards than the heavier .457 ball?

I guess I lucked out on the trigger. These are neat old guns.

Thanks.

 

[Long Johns Wolf]

Lighter ball will shoot lower with the same load of BP.
Long Johns Wolf

 

[TFoley]

Question 1 - Does anyone know what range the original revolvers (built in 1847) were supposed to be sighted in to from the factory?
Question 2 - Why are you saying it would shoot lower at 15 yards than the heavier .457 ball?

Answer to Q1 - 50 yards.

Answer to Q2 - Heavier bullet = heavier recoil = bullet exits barrel at a higher point in the recoil motion.

Remember that the bang and the bullet leaving the muzzle MAY seem instantaneous to you and me, but in terms of actual physics, it takes a aeon, so -

Lighter bullet = less recoil = bullet leaves the barrel at a lower point in the recoil motion.

It's called barrel time - or the length of time that the bullet actually spends in the barrel.

tac

 

[mykeal]

Yep to the above answers, except I thought the range was more like 75 yards. In either case it's beyond my ability to test...

I have two Dragoons (2nd and 3rd models) and a Walker; I've not tried to fully load the chambers in either so I don't know the exact amounts, but I think the Dragoons will hold 50 plus a bit, while the Walker will hold at least 60 (and still seat a ball low enough to clear the frame/barrel).

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Yes, the floppy lever is a common problem. Yes, somewhere in this forum is a thread on how to fix that problem. I just used a blue rubber band when I first started firing the revolver. Now due to usage and screw tightening, the lever rarely drops down.

The gun is a horse pistol and replaced a carbine rifle for the mounted cavalry. The Dragoons are sighted-in for 75 yards as mykeal suggested!

I use Butch's Black Powder Bore Shine to clean the BP residue off of the revolvers. Works great, especially around the hammer. This stuff just emulsifies BP on contact, and chemically alters it to a point that you can simply wipe formerly stuck-on crud away with a paper towel. A quick rinse/wet paper towel, then a dry towel, then a little oil for rust prevention, and you're done! The cylinder and barrel go into the sink, the rest of the revolver gets the wipe-down. A patch with Bore Shine on it will really get the crud out if you take the patch and fold it and use a screwdriver to get into the little nooks & crannies around the hammer and the part of the gun that comes in contact with the cylinder.

After another couple of boxes of balls, then it's time to make the decision to do "this or that" to the gun. Let it settle-down and you get good with it, then you'll be ready to make your decision!

Dave