Range report with 777, Pyrodex P and Goex fffg

[45man]

Sounds very good. I have not been on here for a while, two stints in the hospital and i am just starting to shoot more. I have a question about a Traditions Trapper pistol that was given to me without paper work. 50 cal, 1 in 20" twist. does anyone know the proper ball and patch thickness and some good loads? Would it shoot better with a bullet?
I have about everything, powders, material and molds.
It would save me time as I still have a hard time getting around my range.

 

[PastorB]

Here is the answer to a lot of questions, "Straight from the horses mouth", or the actual back of the can of Hodgdon 777. Notice where it clearly states, "Use by equivalent volume to fffg black powder..." I guess a fella would use reduced loads, never mentioned on the can, to equal fffg velocity. I never use maximum loads when hunting or target shooting, my go to load is 60 grains for everything from my flintlock .45 to my original 1861 rifled musket in .58, including an old, original Damascus twist double barrel 13 gauge made in Birmingham, England in the 1850's. Just posted data to show what I got in my guns, and thought it may be of interest to some. Enjoy whatever you choose to do with your guns! Peace Out! Pastor B

 

[rodwha]

Here is the answer to a lot of questions, "Straight from the horses mouth", or the actual back of the can of Hodgdon 777. Notice where it clearly states, "Use by equivalent volume to fffg black powder..." I guess a fella would use reduced loads, never mentioned on the can, to equal fffg velocity. I never use maximum loads when hunting or target shooting, my go to load is 60 grains for everything from my flintlock .45 to my original 1861 rifled musket in .58, including an old, original Damascus twist double barrel 13 gauge made in Birmingham, England in the 1850's. Just posted data to show what I got in my guns, and thought it may be of interest to some. Enjoy whatever you choose to do with your guns! Peace Out! Pastor B

I knew it stated an equivalent to BP somewhere.

I don’t use max loads for anything either. I started with what I felt was the minimum powder charge to achieve an ethical amount of power, or 25 grns of an energetic 3F powder. I found that both my NMA and ROA are more accurate with a load between my minimum and their maximum (30/35 grns vol). Accuracy is more important. As for a rifle the minimum is about that of caliber. That should provide plenty of horsepower out to 75+ yds with a ball, and more if it’s a conical. Start there and work up to whatever it is the rifle prefers, just as I did with my revolvers.

 

[rodwha]

I'm new to percussion guns but not new to shooting. I've always loaded regular pistol and rifle loads using middle range values. I've never had the inclination to load to the limits. I want to use the same thinking here but am confused by what appears to be conflicting info at times. I'm a recreational shooter and far more interested in safe practices than loading to the max.

Is there a safety issue with loading 777 to the maximum values in the manuals? Not an easy question since the Pietta and Uberti manuals list different numbers. Then there is the question of steel vs brass frame and how that enters into the discussion. Further compounding possible confusion is that this forum mixes discussion of BP rifles with cap and ball pistols...well meaning advice may fit one but not the other, and it isn't always clear what is what. It is good when folks are specific about what they are speaking about.

There is no safety reason why you cannot match the listed loads of a manufacturer. Brass framed guns are a different story all together. Maybe the little .31’s can handle full loads, and maybe even the short cylinder .36 such as the Spiller & Burr, but otherwise 20-25 grns seems considered about the max you want to use, and I’d err on the cautious side and figure maybe 20 grns as a max if the powder is energetic. Maybe even a couple short of that.

 

[nkbj]

Looking forward to trying out this .36 caliber adjustable length mold with 777.

 

[griffiga]

I usually don't care for Pyrodex (although I've used it) of any of the substitutes in my muzzleloaders, but I don't mind, in fact I kind of like the substitutes in my BP cartridge guns. Inside a self contained shell, it seem more consistent with a bit less cleanup. I use about 10% less 777 as it seems to have a bit higher pressure. I'm sure that goes for muzzleloaders as well.

 

[Carbon 6]

I knew it stated an equivalent to BP somewhere.

All black powder substitutes are ( or are supposed to be) "an equivalent to BP" when measured by volume. The reduction differences are by weight. For example, Pyrodex exclaims "more shots per pound", pound is weight.

 

[rodwha]

All black powder substitutes are ( or are supposed to be) "an equivalent to BP" when measured by volume. The reduction differences are by weight. For example, Pyrodex exclaims "more shots per pound", pound is weight.

True. However it’s been claimed that the 15% reduction of T7 is for safety reasons, often stated that the pressures are much higher. Higher than say Schuetzen or standard Goex? Maybe it is. Higher than Swiss or Olde Eynsford? No.

 

[Carbon 6]

True. However it’s been claimed that the 15% reduction of T7 is for safety reasons, often stated that the pressures are much higher. Higher than say Schuetzen or standard Goex? Maybe it is. Higher than Swiss or Olde Eynsford? No.

Who claimed it ? Hodgdon ?

 

[nkbj]

Greater velocity without higher pressures? Not likely is it?

 

[Omahkapi'si]

That's the amount that I use for hunting, if I'm just plinking at a target, 50 grains seems to work about right.

Thank you for the reply. I actually have 2F so will just follow the directions from the Mfg site & label. Maybe 50 grains is fine for 2F as well for plinking.

 

[rodwha]

Who claimed it ? Hodgdon ?

Guess you haven’t been around...

 

[Bad Karma]

Who claimed it ? Hodgdon ?

Not to my knowledge but read these forums long enough and you’ll see it written as gospel.

 

[Carbon 6]

Guess you haven’t been around...

I get around, remember this ?

The other half of this story is that Triple 7 gives similar velocity, grain for grain (volume), as Swiss or Olde Eynsford, both being true black powders. So this 10-15% more than actual BP is only against many BP's not all.

Or this ?

Is Swiss and Olde Eynsford not real BP then?

Have you read the reason why Hodgdon's states to reduce the load? Maybe you ought to.

"To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%."

This is obviously for powders other than Swiss or Olde E, which are real BP's and closer to what was used as evidence by Hazard's Pistol Powder.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/triple-7.95090/

I don't know how it got started, but I don't think it was Hodgdon.

 

[Carbon 6]

I think much of the confusion comes from mixing power by weight with power by volume.

 

[arcticap]

The quote below was copied from the Hodgdon website in 2005.

"Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as black powder. To duplicate a black powder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%."

 

[arcticap]

Sounds very good. I have not been on here for a while, two stints in the hospital and i am just starting to shoot more. I have a question about a Traditions Trapper pistol that was given to me without paper work. 50 cal, 1 in 20" twist. does anyone know the proper ball and patch thickness and some good loads? Would it shoot better with a bullet?
I have about everything, powders, material and molds.
It would save me time as I still have a hard time getting around my range.

See page 48 of this Traditions manual --->>> https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/...NT - FIT 7 Revised Final FINAL_1477335832.pdf

It recommends a .490 round ball with a .015 patch.
Most accurate load is 20-25 grains of 3F
Maximum load is 45 grains of 3F

 

[Howie1968]

That's interesting about 777 may need to try it

 

[45man]

See page 48 of this Traditions manual --->>> https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/data/product_owner_manuals/CURRENT - FIT 7 Revised Final FINAL_1477335832.pdf

It recommends a .490 round ball with a .015 patch.
Most accurate load is 20-25 grains of 3F
Maximum load is 45 grains of 3F

Thank you so much, that is a big help.

 

[Bad Karma]

That's interesting about 777 may need to try it

Some people report a hard “crud ring” (Excuse the technical terms here) forming in front of the chamber area of muzzleloading rifles. I’ve noticed something like that but it’s not a problem imo. Ignition seems easier than pyrodex in my cap locks and it’s instantaneous in revolvers as you’d expect. Gives good velocity and power.