Rate of Twist

[Catof9tails]

I'm kinda new at blackpowder and just wanted to hear some responses on bullets and twist. I have a Percussion Lyman Great Plains Hunter .50 with the twist of 1:32. I use 240 grain Hornaday sabot with about 92 grains by volume Pyrodex.

I understand that 60 twist is for round balls and 48 is the medium for both round balls and conicals. Just wanted to hear the thoughts of folks who have shot sabots in the above mention rate of twist.

How does sabots perform in a 1:48 twist on the percussion rifles sold in Cabelas, ie. Kentucky Rifles and Blue Ridge Rifles? Has anyone shot them out of a 1:60 twist?

I'm looking to go to a .54 and use sabots, but looking for a longer barrel than 32". The 39" barrel Blue Ridge Rifle is attracting. Just not sure about the 48" twist with sabots.

Your experience on this topic is much appreciated.
Thanks, Catof9tails

 

[cayugad]

I've never shot those Cabela's rifles you're talking about. They have 1:48 twist which to me always meant it could shoot roundball or conical bullets. Sabots came on the scene and yes I have shot sabots out of 1:48 twist and some of them actually did a good job, others not at all. I always figured if I want to shoot sabots I will get out my inline. The sidelocks with the 1:48 twist I will just keep shooting roundball and ocassion conicals out of. Good luck with your rifles..

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

I've not owned or shot those guns you named, but have shot muzzleloaders with verious twists.

I had one exceptionally accurate .50cal Navy Arms Inline (it had a chrome lined bore) and a 1:28 twist (if I remember correctly). That gun was like a laser beam when shooting saboted 240gr bullets. Didn't matter if they were cast semi-wadcutters or Winchester JHPs--as long as they were 240gr bullets it's performance was outstanding. I even mounted a scope on it for a while (it was D&T factory for scope), just to see exactly what accuracy I was getting.

I had a friend spot for me while I was shooting it at ranges from 100yds, up to almost 175yds away. With Hornady sabots and those 240gr bullets, I was using 75gr of Pyrodex by volume. That was the "sweet spot" as they say. I had several 2" groups at 100yds and once I knew how much "Mississippi Elevation" to use... I could smoke just about any grapefruit sized rock out to almost 200yds.

That gun ended any doubts I may have had about inline muzzleloader performance and saboted bullets and Pyrodex. The gun was only adequate with round balls. I couldn't go much above 65-70gr of FFg and maintain any kind of accuracy, but it could manage a 3" group at 50yds on a good day with patched Hornady swaged round balls. I used a second (heavier fabric) patch as an overpowder wad. It seemed as though it liked to tear patches with the fast twist and round balls; but with careful loading--it was still good for deer up to about 75yds.

Unless you're going with a custom gun, or making up an Interchangeable Barrel Assembly to swap out on a T/C Hawken or Renegade... I don't know of anything better than what you are already using. IMHO, your Lyman GPR is one of the best percussion guns made in .50 or .54 caliber. I once had a Lyman GPR in .54 with the 1:60" twist, and the accuracy was fantastic with round balls and 100gr of FFg. (I really made a big boo-boo by trading that one off on one of those Civil War Replica guns) I'm not aware of too many traditional or side hammer guns that have "faster twist" barrels. Typically these guns are for more "traditional" hunters and shooters who tend to use patched round balls only, as their forefathers did.

I also had a Cabela's gun maybe 10 yrs ago that was a 26" .54cal sidelock gun with 1:48" twist. (actually traded that .54cal gun for the above-mentioned Navy Arms inline--which was later traded on "something else" that eludes my memory at this time). That gun would shoot Minies quite well as long as I kept the charge at 60-70gr FFg or thereabouts. It shot patched round balls about the same, but could stand 90gr of FFg and accuracy "went to pot" if I loaded above that charge weight.

I did do some experimenting with FFFg instead in .50cal and .54cal guns. Just have to back off quite a bit when starting and keep a close watch on things. It was a good bit less filthy and the fouling wasn't as hard to remove. I even experiment with using Pyrodex P instead of Pyrodex RS--which according to Hodgdon Powder Company is a BIG NO-NO in these larger caliber rifles. DO NOT TRY IT...OKAY?

WARNING! The user accepts ANY and ALL responsibility for their loads and loading practices. The information listed here may NOT be considered as safe in ANY gun. PLEASE refer to the manufacturer's recommendations on propellant use and charge weights for safety's sake. NONE of this information is intended for ANYONE to use. DO NOT USE ANY of this information for ANY type of load or gun use. THANK YOU for your cooperation in this matter.

Round balls will work in these faster twist barrels, but you need to start out with pretty anemic charge weights, and work your way up to the point where accuracy just blows to pieces. You may not be satisfied with such low charge weights, or the accuracy may not be "good enough", or what you were expecting... but for deer hunting in close heavily forested areas, you don't need much better than a 6" group at 50yds (offhand shooting).

You should/ought to get decent performance from your load in that 1:32" twist GPR Hunter. I have found that in the "slow twist" barrels, saboted bullets can generally take the maximum recommended charge weights as a rule and shoot fairly well.

Safe Shooting First... and Fun Second!
WV_Hillbilly

 

[Tahquamenon]

The problem with shooting sabot's or conical's in slower twist barrels is that with lower end charges they are not moving fast enough to maintain stability downrange and end up tumbling.

With heavier charges, I've shot sabot's successfully from 1:48, but with any slower twist the accuracy is really hit and miss.

You also will need to stick to lighter and shorter projectiles. The larger sabot/projectile will not tend to stabilize well with slower twist rifling.

Best option is to try sabot's if that's what you wish to shoot. Some will shoot fine from 1:48 others not.

Lastly, it's not just the rate of twist in rifling that causes sabot or conical accuracy in slower twist barrels. It's also the depth of rifling. In 1:60+ rifling barrels, the rifling is normally deeper than in 1:48 or faster twist button rifled bores. The deeper rifling does not permit optimal gas check sealing of the bore by the sabot resulting in blowby.

:m2c:

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

The problem with shooting sabot's or conical's in slower twist barrels is that with lower end charges they are not moving fast enough to maintain stability downrange and end up tumbling.


Lastly, it's not just the rate of twist in rifling that causes sabot or conical accuracy in slower twist barrels. It's also the depth of rifling. In 1:60+ rifling barrels, the rifling is normally deeper than in 1:48 or faster twist button rifled bores. The deeper rifling does not permit optimal gas check sealing of the bore by the sabot resulting in blowby.

:m2c:

Tahquamenon,

I respectfully have to disagree with some of what you said--at least with regard to conicals (the Minie Bullet in particular). To my knowledge the .577 and .58 Caliber Rifled Muskets, like the Springfields & Enfields, mainly have 3 groove slow twist and very "shallow rifling". The depth is about .003", rather than the .008" to .010" (or more) that is common to the smaller caliber sporting guns of that period.

The charges for those .58's were in the 50gr to 70gr weight range and that is not very high, relatively speaking, when you consider what charge weights we are using nowadays. How many of the latest inline style guns are NOT advertised as being 150gr MAGNUM charge capable for shooting saboted bullets?

Those old large caliber guns were sufficiently accurate AND deadly within 300yds (and more) to stop the advancing enemy ranks. Those bullets were quite stable from the shallow slow twist barrels. Remember also, the "paper ballistics" of a 500gr Minie propelled by a 60gr charge of FFg are pretty pathetic looking, but are extremely efficient projectiles.

But these guns and bullets were NOT so laughable to the soldier whose arm may have been taken off by a slow moving Minie that shattered the humerus... OR what about all the veterans that were missing legs due to having their femurs virtually disintegrated by a .58 caliber hollow based slug?

Let me say that I'm not trying to "argue" with you, but our own U.S.A.'s history has already proven that very slow twist, shallow rifling, can and will, shoot conical bullets extremely well--even with relatively low charge weights. I am not aware of any "saboted bullets" from that era (that would be a good research question for somebody to work on).

As applied to modern inlines versus a current production Kentucky styled rifle; what you have said regarding saboted pistol bullets is esentially correct, but conicals "can" be an exception to the rule sometimes too. Just wanted to make sure you didn't overlook something that I considered to be relevant to the discussion.

Shoot Safely!
WV_Hillbilly

 

[Rat]

Just to throw a monkey-wrench, (or would that be a Rat-wrench?) into the works, I'll ask the question that some of us will want to know, but may be too polite to ask.

An increase to .54 would give you a nice powerful gun, with round ball, without having to shoot saboted pistol bullets. Why not use it in it's intended bore-size?

Just out of curiosity, why/what is your preference of sabots over round ball? Certainly sounds like a 39" Blue Ridge in .54" would take any game on earth with a ball.

A .54" ball is a very deadly, powerful projectile.

::

Rat

 

[Howard]

Let's not forget the famed Whitworth, in which 70 gr of no. 6 powder (similar, I think, to FFFg) propelled a 575 gr hexagonal projectile accurately over hundreds of yards to its target. One of the Whitworth's most illustrious victims was Union Army General Sedgwick. It was Sedgwick who, while placing his artillery at Spotslyvania in May 1864, famously said of some Confederate snipers who were firing from several hundred yards away, "they couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." A moment later he was down, killed by a shot below his eye. Some distance. Some elephant.
To be fair, I think the Whitworth had a rather fast twist.

 

[Tumblernotch]

1 in 20" to be exact. With a mechanically fitting hexagonal bullet also impossible to strip through the rifling. There were documented kills recorded at 1600 yds. during the siege of Charleston, SC. But as you say, this rifle was and is in a class of it's own, and no other muzzleloader has been made that we can compare it with.
:m2c: :thumbsup:

 

[Tahquamenon]

:agree:
I also agree with the Minnie. I was more referring to longer length conical's and deeper rifling found in many PRB barrels which don't always stabilize well with slower twist rifling and lower charges. I should have clarified better.

But just simply generally speaking here.

You bet, hefty projectiles at moderate velocities is most effective. If fact, many projectiles regardless of type will not shoot accuractely at very high charge levels as the projectile can often get pushed over and skip the rifling.

I was just attempting to generally suggest to the specific questions.

With muzzleloading everything is often different from one projectile/load/rifle to the next even with the exact same materials. Somtimes it's the more unpopular load that ends up driving tacks from a given rifle.

At least it has been in my experiences. :: :thumbsup:

 

[Catof9tails]

These are great comments. I appreciate your feed back. From what I've read here, sounds like results vary from experiences. But I need to answer Rat's question.

I was introduced to blackpowder with some sort of percussion six shooter. I talked with that guy that let me shoot that pistol and he recomended me to go with sabots with a rifle. I did some reading and didn't find much on fast twist. But decided to go with the Lyman GPR Hunter 1:32 twist. As soon as I bought that rifle, I moved to a different state, so lost my coach for blackpowder rifles. I've never had the opportunity to shoot round balls from a rifle and experience the 48 and 60 twist. So I've been winging it on my own with just the sabots. Guess you can say I just jumped into blackpowder without experiencing all types of guns and bullets.

My Lyman GPR Hunter performs really well and it's all I've ever known with BP rifles. Hopefully some day, I'll hook up with someone local that uses roundballs and maybe they will show me more of the traditional end. You could say, I still have a lot to learn.

I'm on the hunting end with BP rifles. I just killed my first whitetail this last fall with my Lyman Hunter. But I'm not into the inlines, just the side hammers. Sabots are not considered traditional with me, but I'm not far from going to traditional roundballs if I find a coach.

Thanks again for the comments. It's much appreciated.
Cat9

 

[Tahquamenon]

A .490 PRB, .018 lubed patch, Wonder Wad and a milder charge of say 40-60gr FFFG will likely shoot pretty nice out to 50-60 yards with 1:32" rifling from the GPR. Lots of fun for target plinking and small game, not to mention much less expensive than with sabot's. I've shot the GPR hunter with this PRB setup and it's a ball to target with.

Also, a conical and possibly a wonderwad and a worked up load should pattern nicely from your rifle.
:thumbsup:

 

[Rat]

Well.....I think that if you get another rifle, don't be afraid to get a round-ball twisted barrel, and learn to shoot them. It's not all that hard or mysterious. Lots of .54 calibre guys here to help you. They have more than worked out what size balls and patches, lubes, and incantations really work.

And it's not just a question of traditional vs. non traditional. In .54, a round ball gun is very powerful and effective, possibly/probably more so than with sabots, regardless or what the "paper" ballistics say, or how it works out with the FPE formula, which is flawed. A round ball has great muzzle-velocity, just like a sabot, and it expands very well, probably better than a pistol bullet. But it also hits with a full diameter frontal area, unlike a sabot where you have reduced the caliber of the rifle to a smaller caliber.

Good luck with whatever you do. Don't think you can find more coaches in one place than on this forum.

Rat

 

[roundball]

Well.....I think that if you get another rifle, don't be afraid to get a round-ball twisted barrel, and learn to shoot them. It's not all that hard or mysterious. Lots of .54 calibre guys here to help you. They have more than worked out what size balls and patches, lubes, and incantations really work.

And it's not just a question of traditional vs. non traditional. In .54, a round ball gun is very powerful and effective, possibly/probably more so than with sabots, regardless or what the "paper" ballistics say, or how it works out with the FPE formula, which is flawed. A round ball has great muzzle-velocity, just like a sabot, and it expands very well, probably better than a pistol bullet. But it also hits with a full diameter frontal area, unlike a sabot where you have reduced the caliber of the rifle to a smaller caliber.

Good luck with whatever you do. Don't think you can find more coaches in one place than on this forum.

Rat

RAT has it right...patched round balls are outstanding at typical woods distances to 100yds...and somewhat beyond with a .54/.58cal ball.
And once you take your first deer (or squirrel) with a patched round ball, you'll be hooked.

And...if you're using a flintlock, what a connection to the past you'll feel...you'll stand over that deer and think: "this is how the settlers did it...this is how Daniel did it"...you'll feel it, you'll sense it...greatest sense of accomplishment of my hunting life time...patched round ball in a flintlock using real black powder and real flints.

:redthumb:

 

[jimbo15563]

I'm planning to build an underhammer and am trying to decide the caliber and twist. I would like something different because I already have 2 TC 50's, an Omega and a Hawken flinter. One of the possibilities is a .62 with 2 barrels, 1 rifled for conicals, 1 smooth for shot.
I'm not afraid of the recoil because I plan to put something unmentionable in this forum on the end of the barrel. I'm leaning towards a 1:28 because I might like to do some long-distance target shooting. I'd also like to hunt with it, but am concerned about throwing that much lead at a deer.
My questions are:

A. Could a conical load suitable for whitetails be made with this big a caliber?

B. Is this bore too big for FFF powder?

Thanks,
Jimbo

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Technically speaking, you could work up a conical load in this caliber. You'd probably have to have a mold custom made. And you'd want the proper twist rate in your barrel. Don't know about that fffg, though. In a stout enough barrel it would be safe enough, and in a short barrel you might need to use it to get complete combustion. I think I'd want ffg though to keep pressures down. One thing though, custom molds do tend to be costly.

 

[cayugad]

One of the possibilities is a .62 with 2 barrels, 1 rifled for conicals, 1 smooth for shot.
I'm leaning towards a 1:28 because I might like to do some long-distance target shooting. I'd also like to hunt with it, but am concerned about throwing that much lead at a deer.
My questions are:

A. Could a conical load suitable for whitetails be made with this big a caliber?

B. Is this bore too big for FFF powder?

Thanks,
Jimbo

It sounds like a very interesting undertaking on your part. Instead of a 1:28 twist perhaps a 1:32 twist and then make a custom projectile. Mountain molds can handle that for you. The 1:28 is more suited for sabots. There are no sabots made to my knowledge in that caliber. So instead I would create the barrel with just a little slower twist, and rifling that is acceptable to conicals. Maybe I am way off here too.

Many times people feel big conicals are too much for whitetail. I disagree. I think knocking a big hole like that through the vitals of a deer would be sure death to the animal with extreme knock down power to boot.

As for powder, you might want to stick with FFg for the large conicals. You might want to start them a little slower just for the recoil sake, although you have that covered.

It will be interesting to hear what other feel on this matter. These are only my opinions. I do not base them on gunsmithing skills....

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

One of the possibilities is a .62 with 2 barrels, 1 rifled for conicals, 1 smooth for shot.
I'm not afraid of the recoil

My questions are:

A. Could a conical load suitable for whitetails be made with this big a caliber?

B. Is this bore too big for FFF powder?

Thanks,
Jimbo

That would be a very good caliber in both rifled and smoothbore. I have thought of getting a .62 myself.

Yes, there are some conicals made in that caliber. I believe one of them is 900gr! But there are some that are more reasonable in weight.

Like was already said, if the barrel is sufficiently strong and thick enough, the underhammer receiver is not too weak for it. You'd have to check with Bruce at Blue Grouse if you want specific answers. He is "Da Man"!

Shoot Safely!
WV_Hillbilly

 

[Rebel]

If i recall, Bruce make an underhammer 4 bore, so a .62 ca. shouldn't be a problem.

 

[halfstock54]

I do believe the GP Hunter is just a GPR with the 1-32 twist barrel. If you are honestly looking to shoot roundball with a bit larger charge, you can get a replacement barrel from Lyman (check out mid south shooter supply) in either .50 or .54 for the GPR that should drop in the stock. I just replaced my .50 barrel with a .54 without a problem in my GPR. Cost is about $117 +tax/shipping.

Scott/Ne

 

I don't use sabots but I do shoot round balls and conicals from a 54 Hawken with 1-48 twist. I shot the best BP group of my life using PRB with that rifle one afternoon - 3 shots from the bench at 50 yds into one hole that would support an unfired ball at the edges. Although I wiped between shots, which you might not do while hunting, it does show the potential for the 54 round ball in a 1-48 when loaded properly. I have fired several 3-5 shot groups at 100 yds with PRB that went under 1-1/2 inches and conicals grouped only a little bit bigger so I think you would have success with sabots.