Re-enacting the Sedgwick shot?

[TFoley]

Over the last few years we've seen re-enactments of a number of famous and fatal shots from American history, namely -

1. The near-miss on President Lincoln [muzzle-loader].

2. The Adobe Walls long-range shot [BPCR], and

3. The Kennedy assassination [centre-fire cartridge].

The missing 'epic and memorable shot', to my mind, and one that is closer to the hearts of most of us here from a hobby and sporting point of view, is the one that felled Lincoln's favourite general, John Sedgwick, at Spotsylvania Courthouse in May 1864.

The history and lore/legend of this remarkable shot is easily found on the internet and in the history books, but as far as I know, nobody has ever tried to replicate/duplicate it.

Claimed to have been shot at a distance of 1200 [military] paces - that's roughly 800 yards - 'Uncle John' was hit under the left eye with a Whitworth bullet, fired by a marksman of extreme skill. His name varies, as do first hand reports from those who claim the shot as theirs. So too does the situation in which General Segdwick 'received the shot'. Some say that he was standing [the famous painting would indicate this] and others claim to have shot him off his horse. I take the 'standing general' view. He was a brave man, of that there is no doubt, but he was not suicidal, and to have openly stuck himself six feet higher in full view of the marksmen that the CSA had in their ranks at that time would have been an act of suicidal folly.

So here is my idea. Now that our friends, the Polisars, have come back to the fold, as it were, I propose - at long distance, of course - that Whitworth shooters on this forum get together, and using one of the Polisar's beautiful swaged 535gr bullets - exactly like those made by the Whitworth company back in Manchester England - a marksman attempts to emulate that long-ago shot in public, on a suitable range, and on the date of the original event, and that it be called The Sedgwick Commemoration Shoot, or somesuch title. No prize, save that of knowing that the successful shot was made, and, perhaps, a small commemoration plaque with the name of the successful marksman engraved on it.

Hows about it, Gentlemen?

Are ye up to the mark?

Have a think about it.

tac

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Interesting challenge.

Actually the account that I know of is very similar to this:

Sedgwick's corps was probing skirmish lines ahead of the left flank of Confederate defenses and he was directing artillery placements. Confederate sharpshooters were about 1,000 yards away and their shots caused members of his staff and other soldiers to duck for cover. Sedgwick remained standing in the open and was quoted as saying, "What? Men dodging this way for single bullets? What will you do when they open fire along the whole line?" His men continued to take cover and he repeated, "I'm ashamed of you, dodging that way. They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." Just seconds later he fell forward with a bullet hole below his left eye.

So..., according to this account, perhaps the sharpshooter had more than one try at the group of officers, and as Sedgwick stayed in the open, subsequent shots were directed at him..., so how many shots do you propose to be fired? :wink:

Now I know folks attribute the bullet that struck the general to the Whitworth rifle..., I am wondering what they base that upon? Did they recover the slug, was it the only rifle employed for long range firing by the Confederates at that engagement? Is it absolutely positive there were no civilian rifles present in the hands of the Confederates conducting long range shots at the union line that morning?

LD

 

[TFoley]

Interesting challenge.

Actually the account that I know of is very similar to this:

Sedgwick's corps was probing skirmish lines ahead of the left flank of Confederate defenses and he was directing artillery placements. Confederate sharpshooters were about 1,000 yards away and their shots caused members of his staff and other soldiers to duck for cover. Sedgwick remained standing in the open and was quoted as saying, "What? Men dodging this way for single bullets? What will you do when they open fire along the whole line?" His men continued to take cover and he repeated, "I'm ashamed of you, dodging that way. They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." Just seconds later he fell forward with a bullet hole below his left eye.

So..., according to this account, perhaps the sharpshooter had more than one try at the group of officers, and as Sedgwick stayed in the open, subsequent shots were directed at him..., so how many shots do you propose to be fired? :wink:

Now I know folks attribute the bullet that struck the general to the Whitworth rifle..., I am wondering what they base that upon? Did they recover the slug, was it the only rifle employed for long range firing by the Confederates at that engagement? Is it absolutely positive there were no civilian rifles present in the hands of the Confederates conducting long range shots at the union line that morning?

LD

OK, so try with with a P53. Or whatever else the CSA might have had at that time and in use by their sharpshooters. Or maybe there were no sharpshooters at all, just a few fluke shots, one of which just happened to connect.

Who knows now?

I'm not trying to set up arguments here, or fly in the face of long-established lore, myths and legends of the WoNA, just suggesting a bit of fun, is all.

tac

 

[54ball]

He was a brave man, of that there is no doubt, but he was not suicidal, and to have openly stuck himself six feet higher in full view of the marksmen that the CSA had in their ranks at that time would have been an act of suicidal folly.

I kind of think it was a requirement for generals of that era and before to stand out in front and be somewhat "suicidal". That's one method of rallying the troops.

If I'm not mistaken Chesty Puller exposed himself to Japanese fire at Guadalcanal. George Washington rallied the troops at Brandywine and I do believe at Monmouth too.

Dave I've always heard the quote as this.

They couldn't hit an elephant at this dis

 

[RedFeather]

So give it a try. Set up a suitable target, not necessarily too life like as that might offend the sensitive, and fire away. To be honest, hitting him at all, much less in the head, was probably a very fortuitous shot (for the South). Be hard to accomplish today with modern equipment. I suspect someone or two marksmen had found the range since the subordinates were ducking. General should have taken heed but, as we are told upon entering military service, the higher you go in the ranks, the more you know.

 

[Alden]

Why not "The Col. Strong Vincent" Shoot. The Arnold-Morgan-Murphy Simon Fraser and Sir Francis Clerke Match. Maybe the Robert Young - Patrick Ferguson Commemorative Shoot Out!?

 

[TFoley]

So give it a try. Set up a suitable target, not necessarily too life like as that might offend the sensitive, and fire away. To be honest, hitting him at all, much less in the head, was probably a very fortuitous shot (for the South). Be hard to accomplish today with modern equipment.

Well, having been a Whitworth shooter at long range for well over a quarter of a century, I can only agree with you totally, especially with open sights. However, there is always the chance that the gentleman who fired that fatal shot had a rifle - of whatever kind - [let us suppose that it WAS a Whitworth] equipped with the Col Davidson scope, in which case, it makes the intentionally-aimed-at-the tall-guy-stomping-around shot more believable. I've never been rich enough to have had such a device on my gun, but I'm told by those who have one of the Malcolm scopes fitted that it would make an aimed shot more likely to hit at the quoted range of 1200 paces [800 yards].

Still, it's only a bit of fun that I'm suggesting, for those, as my pal Clyde in DETX notes, with the necessary length of range. It might help out those of you with lesser ranges to do what we do over here with our short-range club 'buffalo shoots' - carried out on short ranges - and shoot at a scaled-down target representation of Uncle John.

Make of it what you will.

tac

PS - with 'modern equipment' he's dead for sure. We regularly shoot groups well inside an eight inch circle at 800m with our practical/tactical centre-fire rifles to the point where we simply replace the 8" shoot-n-see, not needing to even patch the rest of the target. In fact, failing to get ALL your shots in that 8" target and you'll be flipping the burgers in the post-shoot bar-b-q. Heck, we shoot eggs at 500m, and double-sized flies, too.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I'm not trying to set up arguments here, or fly in the face of long-established lore, myths and legends of the WoNA, just suggesting a bit of fun, is all.

Nor am I, but if we set up such a shot, say we did it mechanically, to try to show the rifle is accurate enough, and our test equipment isn't successful..., does that mean our equipment is faulty, or the shooter had to have been closer, or it was all luck, or..., that maybe it wasn't a military rifle?

Do we want to see if such a shot was doable, the rifles could do it but with a human shooting it was skill or luck, or are we also entertaining the possibility that whoever fired the shot wasn't using a military arm at all?

I believe several persons have claimed to have fired the shot, but none are considered the "favorite" to have done so, no? Perhaps such a test will point to clear candidate for credit? I think it's fun to either debunk myths OR to find that although something sounds mythical..., you find good reason to to say something happened as the stories tell.

:grin:

LD

 

[Billnpatti]

Now, that does sound like a heck of a lot of fun but only for those owning a Whitworth rifle. I don't know how many folks who live within a reasonable distance of the proposed range will own a Whitworth rifle. But, let's assume that you can assemble a reasonable group of folks with the necessary rifle, wouldn't repeating that shot be somewhat like reenacting the famous "Hail Mary pass" or one of the rare desperate full court throws of a basket ball at the last second that just happens to go into the basket? I am strongly of the opinion that such a shot is far more luck than skill. But, what the heck, if you can pull off such a match, it would be fun to see what happens. Go for it and good luck. :hatsoff: :thumbsup: Keep us posted.

 

[Billnpatti]

Quote: "Heck, we shoot eggs at 500m, and double-sized flies, too."

Ontario my Aunt Fannie!! Anyone who talks like that has to be from Texas. :rotf:

I'm proud of you, Tac, but before you go any further, let me put on my hip boots. :haha:

 

[Jason Lewis]

we shoot long range muzzleloaders out to 1200yrds in both the US and UK. here in the US the target is the standard NRA high power bullseye, which is on a 6'x6' white. people at 800yrds are visible but very tiny, since the staff officers were all standing in a group, they made a good target for sharpshooters. otherwise a single individual would be very difficult to see when sighting the rifle.

in my opinion as a whitworth shooter, the shot was and is possible. but, I also believe that it was a lucky shot, given that the sharpshooters did not know the range, and the wind conditions can be very tricky. not to mention the flight time is over 2 seconds at that distance.

 

[RedFeather]

I am thinking now it could be done. Place a four leaf clover between bullet and powder, a horse shoe in each back pocket and rub a bald man's head for luck before gauging wind drift by dangling a rabbit's foot from a string. A sight level filled with holy water couldn't hurt, either. OK, that out of the way, what's the harm in trying? Someone did make tthe original shot, so failing to duplicate it proves little. (Recall Mythbusters lame attempt to disprove the Hathcock through the scope shot.). Heck, there are Quigley bucket shoots and the only thing really shooting in that flick was the movie camera. As to type of rifle, seeing as how there was no autopsy, it's not certain it was a Whitworth. Might as easily have been some kid lobbing one in from a Mississippi. Lots of horse play in them days.

Regarding modern equipment, them eggs and double flies moving around? Some guy's noggin tossing about while he's jaw boning might complicate the shot some.

 

[Birdwatcher]

Might as easily have been some kid lobbing one in from a Mississippi. Lots of horse play in them days.

800 yards? Likely not a Mississippi, either in its original round ball .54 configurations or bored out for a .58 Minie.

Durn it I have GOT to find my copy of "The Rifle Musket in the Civil War", an excellent book...
http://www.amazon.com/The-Rifle-Musket-Civil-Combat/dp/0700616071

Includes a whole chapter on long range shots and sniping. One anecdote concerns a skilled Confederate marksman who, try as he might, was unable to "reach out and touch someone" at extreme range with a Springfield, the weapon simply not having the range, so he borrowed a Whitworth (??) and did some execution.

Also in that book period accounts of exposed artillery being chased off by sharpshooter rifle fire at ranges over 1,000 yards.

One thing that DOES come out in those accounts that the intended targets like Sedgewick's men, after a few bullets came whizzing in, durned well knew it weren't random fire, and many times correctly identified the location of the distant shooter.

Birdwatcher

 

[nkbj]

People shooting at places other than a sit down bench occasionally make rip roaring great shots.
With large numbers of practiced men shooting for years there were occasionally legendary shots.
If you were unlucky you got included in the story.
If you weren't an officer the story probably got told but not written.

 

[Birdwatcher]

People shooting at places other than a sit down bench occasionally make rip roaring great shots

Well, we know they weren't shooting offhand, but usually from a rest of some kind.

This was only 600 yards, but the guy was pretty good, and reasonably consistent. Cool website....
http://www.jamescgroves.com/henry/hcp1a.htm

"Among the interesting incidents that occurred on Little Round Top was the summary way in which a sharpshooter was disposed of in rear of Devil's Den. He had concealed himself behind a stone wall between two boulders and for a long time we were annoyed by shots from that direction, one of which actually combed my hair over my left ear and passed through the shoulder of a man a little taller than myself who was standing behind me for a cover.

At last we were able to locate the spot, by the use of a field glass, from whence the shots came by little puffs of smoke that preceded the whizzing of the bullets that passed by our heads.

Birdwatcher

 

[TFoley]

Well, tac.....my face is red :redface:....I don'tknow what to say :idunno:... except to say It ain't braggin' if you can do it. Aparently,from those pictures, it is possible and you can do it. As they say, "The proof is in the pudding." My apologies for doubting you. I tip my hat to a fine shooter :hatsoff:

Well, Sir and Madame, I hasten to point out that the 'fine shooter' is not THIS boy. Diggle Ranges are a $250 drive up the road from me, and I'd rather spend my money on a clothe, or a food - maybe even necessaries. MY club has only a 100m, 50m and 25m outdoor range and two 25m indoor ranges, although my nearest 1200m range is not too far away, and used by many clubs/associations in the Eastern Counties.

tac

 

[Claude Mathis]

Regarding modern equipment, ...

Let's keep this thread about traditional muzzleloaders, within the time frame of this Forum.

Thanks

 

[Many Klatch]

We have a 400 yard match currently going in the Members Only Shooting Match forum.

Many Klatch

 

[paulab]

The Grayling black powder target rifle NRA regional championship was held this month in Michigan. The course of fire was 800-900 and 1000 yards. The X ring on the NRA LR target is 10 inches in diameter. Over both days of the match, [65 shots for score] there were only 2 people who got 6 X's. Both people are NRA national record holders so they could be considered better than average shots.
The point is.....EVERYBODY aimed at the X-ring, on every shot from the prone position using X-sticks at known distances but most of the time they didn't hit the X ring.
The moral of the story......easier said than done. Cheers Paul

 

[RedFeather]

Maybe we should start with the elephant? :wink: