Ready to take the plunge and build a flintlock

[40calFlintlock]

I’m contemplating building a flintlock Rifle kit. My thoughts are: 1) TOTW Fusil Type D, 58 rifled; 2) TOTW Isaac Haines, 40 rifled; 3) Jim Chambers, Early Lancaster, 58 rifled; 4) maybe Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle, 58 rifled.

I have basic woodworking experience and my brother is a master woodworker, so I’m not worried in this area.

Has anyone built any of these Rifle kits? Please leave your comments - good, bad, indifferent.

Thanks

 

[BigBoreBLR]

Can't comment on builds, but 3 to 1 on the 58 vs 40. Is go 58 cal.

Next build will be a chambers ladies rifle in 45.

Personally, I'd pick 54 over 58. Bit cheaper to feed and roundball is much easier to find.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Let's add one more kit to your decision making process. Jim Kibler will be offering in addition to the SMR kit, (IIRC) a Colonial style rifle. You may have to call since it's not offered yet on the website. (Get it in 54 caliber) Pre orders have started in Nov. / Dec, 2017 time frame.

 

[don hepler]

I second the Kibler. Great way to get started, without over complicated process.

I've been around two SMR Kibler builds, and a total novice built one, with great success.

 

[40calFlintlock]

This is why I love this forum. Great advice from knowledgeable people.
I’ve never heard of Jim Kibler, but I’ll definitely look at what he has to offer.
Thanks again :hatsoff:

 

[wvbuckbuster]

Got an email from Jim Kibler today and they are taking orders for the new rifle. Dan.

 

[BigBoreBLR]

Never seen a jim kibler in person, but seen plenty of close-ups of finished guns online.

He makes a great NON LEFT HANDED rifle kit.....

However, southpaws have to looks elsewhere for now.

 

[Vaino]

What parts set you choose depends on your purpose for buying one. If you want to learn how to build a flintlock, buy the "kits" you mentioned. I say "kits" but they're a bunch of parts that you have to prepare and install.

If you just want a flintlock, buy Kibler's new "kit" which is one step above a sand and finish factory kit.

Have built 3 Chambers' early Lancaster parts sets and his "kits" are a little more refined than the others you mentioned. The dovetails for the 4 bbl lugs and the front sight are finished and the brass requires very little work to finish. His locks have a lifetime warranty and the parts are quality.....not saying the others aren't.

The "kits" you mentioned require many hrs to complete, including the Chamber's "kits"....depending on the skill of the builder, 100-150 hrs.

One other thing....buy at least one good "how to" book and study it.......Fred

 

[54ball]

Fred makes a great point.

I have been around two Kiblers. They are quick to build but there is a lot more to them than shake the box real hard and a longrifle falls out.
Kiblers require extra care. A lot of stuff is done but the very delicate fine fitting is not. Also the stock is just about at finished demension so this work requires great care. Kiblers have thier quirks like all of them.

I'm learning to build at a shop under a master. He had both Chambers and Kiblers come in for building.

The Chambers parts sets comes in.....the owner opened the box and sees all those parts. Wow! this is too much work.....so he sends it out to be built.

A Kibler comes in....the owner opened the box and sees that beautiful little dainty stock. Wow! I'll mess this up.....so he sends it out to be built.

A professional builder can get the Kibler together in a day.
A professional builder can usually get a Chambers set together in a week.
A Track set may take a few days longer.
Now this is a full time smith working very full days. The same smith working evenings and weekends would take much longer. A carefull unskilled student, much much longer.

If there is a problem with the Kibler it's this.

On a blank or a parts set you work towards the delicate stage. So you adjust accordingly. By the time you approach finish, your skills and attitude have reached that delicate point.
With a Kibler you have to be ready to be delicate and do that fine work from the start. A blank and a set, is more forgiving to a point in the early stages. The Kibler is right there at finish....the point that makes or breaks a good rifle.

Track, Knob Mountain....

Track has their premium kits...
The Vincent
The 44" Beck
The Haines
The Bivins
The Early Tennessee
The English Fowler
The NW gun
The Fusil De Chasse
The M-1803
In my opinion the best of thier best is the Vincent, the Beck and the Haines.
The NW gun likely being the easiest to build.

Now a pre-inlet precarve has it's own set of challenges. The lock is set so adding a vent liner poses some challenges. Persoally I like drilled vents. Sometimes you may find even without a liner, you may have to move the barrel back some.

None of these, Track or Chambers have a finished barrel channel. The barrel will require fitting. The barrel channel on on both are unfinished and rounded at the breech. This means fitting not only the whole barrel to the channel but cutting or letting the breech of the barrel. Fit here is critical. Then you have to fit the tang.

Coming from a perspective of someone who has built rifles, in many ways a pre-inlet pre-shaped stock like Chambers and Track are really more difficult to inlet some components like the lock.

The lock is say 80 to 90 % inlet. Well that leaves the most difficult part to you. I find it much easier to inlet the whole lock vs the very tedious action of shaving off a 16th on one side or a 32nd on the other side. The worst is where the fit is exact in spots, close in others. This can be real aggravating on a side plate where it fits one side and almost fits the other side. It's much easier just do the whole thing from the start. The pre shaped pre inlet sets look good but looks are deceiving. Really building a traditional pre-inlet parts set is much different than building from a blank or a non inlet pre shaped stock. In the end each has it's difficulty.

Now a Kibler is CNC made and even has most or all of the holes done. The lock guts need some fitting but pretty much everything is done except the very fine stuff at spots.

Pre shaped non inlet stocks.....

These are sets where the stock is preshaped, the barrel channel and ramrod hole are done. There are 2 types.

The first type is like what Track and many others offer in thier cheaper sets like the Colonial Rifle set. It has a Lancaster pattern stock pre shaped leaving all the inlets up to you, the lock, triggers, sideplate, butt plate, triggerguard etc.ect. Thier disadvantage is nothing except the barrel channel is done and they can be a little delicate as they are preshaped. Thier advantage is really the same, they have no inlets so that gives more freedom as far as lock placement and the inletting is all on you, which can be a good thing. Plus they are less expensive.

The second type of pre shaped stock. Is one pre shaped to the back of the lock panel but in the square from the lock panel to the muzzle.
David Keck at Knob Mountain and others offer stocks like this. These are usually based on historical stocks. A lot of these are direct duplicates of original rifles. You send a barrel and it is inlet into one of these patterns. The big advantage with one of these is the barrel is fully inlet and fit to the stock and the ramrod hole is done. The forestock and most of the lock panel is in the square making drilling pins easier. The front portion of the rifle will need to be shaped. These are a lot like building from a blank.
Example......You decide you want a Bonewitz Rifle. Knob Mountain has that stock pattern and Track has the barrel and Bonewitz/Reading furniture.
You decide on a 44" B wt. 50 caliber. You buy the barrel send it to Keck at Knob Mountain and he will inlet the barrel and pre shape one of his stocks. You will get the stock back with the barrel fully inlet. The balance of the parts, you can get from Track or other suppliers. Knob Mountain has parts and Barrels as well. They offer traditional sets like the Beck and Lancaster. These sets are as good as Chambers.

I know I have not got into detail with Chambers. All of his sets are good quality.

In closing........
Kiblers are close to finish just about everything is done.

Pre carve pre inlets have a lot done but have challenges of their own.

Pre shaped non inlets allow freedom in positioning the components but everything is on you.

Buttstock shaped stocks in the square have the barrel fully fitted but you have to round up the right parts and do all the shaping from the wrist forward. These are close to a blank and will require more layout.

If you want 1 great rifle to put together.....get a Kibler.

If you want to build more than one and learn gun building consider one of the parts sets.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Wow 54Ball ... impressive info there, thank ye’!

 

[simonbeans]

54Ball,
Nice write-up. Keep this info on file so that when this same question is asked again, as it will, you can just paste it on the thread. Good job.

 

[40calFlintlock]

Dear 54ball,

WOW! Thanks for the thesis on gun building. :hatsoff: I’m still in the contemplation phase and the information you provided is of great help.

Thanks!

 

[EMaker]

54Ball - excellent review. Thank you.

I too have jumped into the flintlock world deeply, and just now purchased a Kibler Colonial rifle kit (pre-ordered). Can't wait. I got the one in 45 - though I could change it to a .50 or .54. Thoughts?

R,
E. Maker

 

[Col. Batguano]

Caliber selection is mostly a function of intended usage. If you're planning on hunting with it, the bigger the game, the bigger the caliber. If you're just going to put holes in paper, then a bigger caliber is just going to be more expensive to feed, and make more noise and kick harder. When it comes to finding round balls in the local places, 50's are the most common, followed by 45's and .375 cal balls intended for C&B revolvers (or that would be a 38 caliber rifle). For hunting, a 38 really isn't appropriate for anything other than small game. the barrels are ALL custom jobs anyway, so that's not a common or realistic caliber for most peoples' choices.

 

[MSW]

What 54Ball said ... i'll add my two cents worth, thus:

i agree wholeheartedly that if only one longrifle is in your future, you would do well to go with one of Mr. Kibler's guns (i'm saving up my soda cans for one now... might take a while...)

you should get a few books, and i would do this before you buy a kit. i recommend The Gunsmith of Grenville County, by Peter Alexander. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/303/1/BOOK-GGC
Additionally, i would commend to your reading Recreating the American Longrifle, by Buchele et al. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/303/2/BOOK-RAL
there are several other books which will be useful, but these two will give you a good idea of what's going on. the are (i admit) a bit 'spendy,' but i think it comes down to a matter of cost efficiency: they will more than save their purchase price in parts you don't ruin (as well as time you don't have to spend waiting for the new parts to arrive... as to the time in purgatory for the bad language, i'll let those more knowledgeable in theology cover that).

other thoughts:
if you are going to use your own tools, i would avoid buying 'sets' of anything; rather, buy only what you need. sets have an interesting way of having only two of the five ever leave the nice cased box, and the others simply collecting dust.

If you are going to buy your own tools: Some are gunbuilding specific, such as wee bitty chisels for inletting lockplates (which i made from piano wire) and some are not, such as the quarter inch chisel with the bend in the handle: useful for getting into tight places in the barrel channel, and in the inside of drawers. Either way, figure out how to get them neurosurgery sharp. My father (who should have known better) was convinced that a tool was perfectly sharp when it left the factory. His tools were always dull, and i have a scar on my left hand to show for it. Get your edges well honed and well stropped ... getting bloodstains out of figured maple is just about impossible (don't ask me how i know).

As far as technique - "sneak up on it" is probably the best advice i've been given ... works for me. Also, don't ever hesitate to put the thing down and ask a question on this forum (which is, to my mind, the best resource).

Best of luck with your build.

end pictures ... we love pictures.


(psst- should we tell him how addictive building is, or should we let him fall into the trap unwarned?) insert 'mad scientist' laugh here

 

[mark/wi]

I just preordered a 50 from Mr. Kibler. Looking forward to getting it. Just hope I don't screw it up. Mark