Real BP in New York State

[jh2oman]

Does anybody know where I can buy real BP in Western New York? I had a bit of powder cached away and had not bought any in several years, and now -- getting back into the BP thing -- I can't seem to find it anywhere. In calling several big gunshops and ammunition distributors I'm finding no one has real BP anymore. Apparently NYS has enacted more stringent storage rules??

Also, I've read on some other posts where members of the board have bought cases of Goex -- what's the regulations on doing that? I'll buy a case if I need to to keep my new guns firing!!

Regards,
JW

 

[Stumpkiller]

Good luck. I gave up and got it shipped from www.powderinc.com The state requires a dedicated climate-controlled storage facility, which I was told would cost a minimum of $10,000, seperate from certain things so it can't just be a locker in their warehouse - which means most shops would need to own a second building just for powder storage.

 

[bob1961]

down here in northeast PA there's a place ya can get it and if your down this way ya can even pick it up on the way home....

"Bonnie", Goex Master Distributor
J&J PyroTechnics
RR3, Box 3367G, Moscow, PA, 18444
PH=570-842-3658

ya just have to call a couple of days before ya are going to be there to get your order ready...................bob

 

[RMillet]

I'm with Stumpy on this one. Powder Inc. will let you order 5, 10, 25 or 50 lb. mixed cases. UPS drops it off right at your door.

Dick

 

[LeeRoy87]

The danger with "real" black powder -- a danger increased a thousandfold by the so-called Patriot Act -- is that allegedly a great many municipalities (and possibly even some states) have outlawed its possession entirely, and allegedly will prosecute you as a terrorist (no matter how many muzzle-loaders you own) if you're caught with it, for example as the result of a house-fire or some other unexpected misfortune. I have heard (rumor only/no factual details) this has already happened, but in fairness it should be noted this may just be gunowner paranoia run amok. Trouble is, if you call your local government and ask what's legal, the bureaucrat with whom you are dealing will typically demand you identify yourself. If the bureaucrat is suspicious you are violating some ordinance concerning firearms-related material, the Patriot Act requires the bureaucrat to denounce you to the authorities (yes, just like in Nazi Germany or the USSR), and at the very least you'll be investigated, probably by the feds as well as the locals. In this regard -- and I know this from my local FFL dealers (especially with reference to black powder, but also gunpowder of any kind) -- life under the Bush Administration/Patriot Act is actually much harsher than life was under the Clinton Administration. Thus the best course of action is to remain anonymous by having a firearms lawyer or shooters' advocacy group make the how-much-can-I-possess inquiry for you. Also, many other municipalities that don't totally outlaw black powder possession severely restrict the quantities of black powder you can legally keep in your home or on your property. Be aware/be legal!

 

[BLAHMAN]

So does this mean we need to start hiding all our BP? I really do detest this......some dumb bunny enacts a law and "POOF" I am now a criminal. Not because of what I did, but because of what I own...this stinks!

 

[LeeRoy87]

Yes it does stink, but this is precisely what the anti-gunners have been doing for years: making people criminals by outlawing that which was once perfectly legal. (Sorry I don't know any more about this issue than what I already posted, which as I already indicated is only rumor and hearsay.) My one suggestion is to belong to and support state-level shooters associations in addition to NMLRA, NRA, etc. State groups can help with this sort of thing, big time, not just by opposing objectionable legislation but by keeping you informed when it passes. Good luck!

 

[Keith]

I don't know where in western NY you are, but I found Liberty Gunshop in Victor has real BP. It's about 18 bucks a pound though.

The problem with BP is it is a fire and explosive hazard. When I bought BP at Liberty last I asked if the Patriot act caused any more problems for sales. I was told no. The only thing was during the last, or post 9/11, ATF inspection(s) the Feds spent a lot of time looking at the list of purchasers. Looking for guys named Abdul and Ali Babba I guess.

Incidentally the powder was in a locked cabinet on the sales floor next to the smokeless powder. A lot of the regulations causing problems for stores are fire codes enacted at the state and local level. Also, the replica stuff sells better so stores stock more.

Now that I think about it why do stores lock up cans of smokeless powder but not ammo or replica BP?

 

[Stumpkiller]

Now that I think about it why do stores lock up cans of smokeless powder but not ammo or replica BP?

For the same reason that primers have to have the hazardous shipping fee but loaded ammunition does not. Mindless government bureaucrats.

 

[Keith]

Oh yeah, working for the state you'd think I would remember that. :crackup:
Hmm, that doesn't make me sound to good does it?

 

[LeeRoy87]

My reference to the Patriot Act comes from two Puget Sound-area FFL gun dealers, each of whom have told me they won't ever again carry black powder once their present stocks are exhausted, this because (they say) the Patriot Act has imposed radically increased federal storage restrictions. One of these, I was told, is a DAILY inventory report on all black powder stocks. (Sorry I didn't clarify whether the report stays in-store or has to be filed with the government.)

Here in Washington state, the dwindling availability of real black powder sets up an impossible contradiction: the only muzzle loaders that will function reliably with "replica" powders are modern in-line guns, but even the in-line guns won't reliably ignite the "replica" powder without using shotgun primers -- but the use of shotgun primers makes the guns illegal for muzzle-loader hunting seasons.

The anti-gunners of course love it because it imposes yet another barrier against shooting and gun-ownership. (You gotta be a Philadelphia lawyer to figure out Washington state game and fish laws anyway. They're deliberately written to be as confusing -- as user-unfriendly -- as possible. It's no coincidence the NRA began its save-hunting campaign here in Washington state.)

 

[Rebel]

the only muzzle loaders that will function reliably with "replica" powders are modern in-line guns, but even the in-line guns won't reliably ignite the "replica" powder without using shotgun primers -

I have never had a problem getting Pyrodex to fire in a sidelock caplock. It don't work in flintlocks well, but works fine in my double barrel .12 ga caplock, and in the GPR's and other caplocks i've had.. I have never tried any of the other subs, so can't say how they act.

 

[LeeRoy87]

Tried Pyrodex about 15 years ago, quickly gave up on it. Many hang-fires (which for me are normally almost unheard of), also audible differences from report to report -- everything from "boom" to "crack" -- indicating tremendous velocity variation, a guestimate confirmed by the targets themselves (otherwise accurate rifles not even grouping but instead throwing something more akin to shotgun patterns). A few years later this result was further confirmed by a friend's chronograph: instead of the remarkable consistency of real black powder, Pyrodex was yielding a variation of 100-200 fps between rounds, worse than even the most erratic results I ever got handloading smokeless-powder cartridges. I can only assume this was due to ignition problems -- and, yes, I was using CCI caps, then (and now) still probably the best and hottest caps available. (Now that you mention it, my best Pyrodex results were in my 10-ga. shotgun, probably because ignition in the scattergun is not nearly as critical, and in fact I burned up most of the rest of the powder that way, not hunting -- ignition was still much too unreliable -- just plinking. And even in the shotgun there were still, round to round, noticeable differences in the sounds of the discharges.)

 

[Rebel]

Strange, i never have had any problems using the RS or P in sidelocks and revolvers. Maybe the newer stuff is a better quality? I got good performance. I could shoot 3/4" center to center 5 shot groups at 50 yds off a bench using 90 gr. of RS in my Lyman GPR .54 cal. Killed a number of deer using it. I still use it in my double barrel .12 ga., but use Goex in my .62 flintlock smoothbore. Which is for sale if anyone is interested.

 

[LeeRoy87]

Have indeed heard the newer Pyrodex ignites a lot easier, but mightly resent being forced to find out -- especially since state bureaucrats have forced the closure of ALL the informal shooting ranges that formerly abounded in Western Washington. (Even with cartridge arms, attempting serious load development at a formal shooting range is absolutely the most frustrating firearms-related chore I know of. Because of all the regulations and interruptions for cease-fires etc., success at it requires literally weeks of snail-paced efforts. Not to mention being prohibitively expensive due to range fees.)

Moreover, published results show there's still a significant velocity loss with Pyrodex. This may not matter much in rifles, but it is absolutely ruinous in revolvers, especially the Ruger Old Army: the difference between 1160 fps obtainable with 41 grs. FFFFg and a .457 ball versus no more than about 900 fps with Pyrodex P; the difference between about 950 fps with 36 grs. FFFFg and a 220 gr. conical versus no more than 700 fps with Pyrodex. This radically downsizes energy: with the ball load, a difference of more than 400 foot pounds for FFFFg versus less than 250 foot pounds with Pyrodex; shooting the conical, a difference of about 450 foot pounds with FFFFg versus less than 235 foot pounds with Pyrodex. (My FFFFg figures are all from a chronograph; the Pyrodex figures are from memory, mostly decades of NRA technical division stuff.)

In other words, Pyrodex turns a potent, dragoon-class .44 into something less than a puny .38 Special (if even that), making it worse than useless for any self-defense or animal-emergency purpose, a vital consideration in bear, cougar and outlaw country. (My FFFFg figures are all from a chronograph.)

Also I've heard that with the Rugers there are severe accuracy problems using Pyrodex. This is no doubt a byproduct of the radical velocity reductions: Rugers typically shoot their very best with maximum-velocity loads. (This is absolutely true of mine, which are 1980s vintage, early stainless guns with the serrated triggers: 25-yard, off-the-sandbags groups well under two inches with either ball or conical, but only with max loads.)

 

[Rebel]

I would think the velocities would be closer if you were using the BP equivelent of Pyrodex P which would be 3f instead of 4f. I didn't know that it was safe or adviseable to use 4f in a revolver. Is this something that can be safely done?

 

[LeeRoy87]

Use FFFFg in the Ruger Old Army ONLY. (Ruger manual specifically states "any granulation" from Fg to FFFFg is safe to use.)

DO NOT USE FFFFg (4Fg) in ANY other replica revolvers. Here's why:

EVERY Uberti .44 I ever owned began destroying itself within less than six rounds when merely loaded with maximum charges of FFFg (3Fg). In every case, the recoil pulled the loading-lever catches out of their dovetails on the undersides of the barrels, rendering the revolvers useless.
This happened with two Uberti Colt Second Model Dragoons in 1990 and two Uberti 1858 Remingtons in 1967, so it's obviously an old problem. Because the dovetails themselves were damaged, the revolvers were beyond repair and so became worthless junk. In the case of the Dragoons, Dixie Gun Works promptly refunded my money, but with the Remingtons -- bought from the late Val Forgett at Navy Arms -- I was screwed. In any case, just imagine what FFFFg (4Fg) would have done: probably taken these Uberti guns apart completely, bulged cylinders at the very least.

However, also in the early '90s, I had two Pietta stainless-steel 1858 Remingtons that were fine with all FFFg (3Fg) loads. NO FFFFg (4Fg) (after my Uberti experiences, I wouldn't trust ANY Italian steel to handle it), but plenty of max loads with FFFg (3Fg). The Piettas gave reasonable max-load accuracy too, reliably on the order of 3 or 4 inches at 25 yards, sandbagged, or about what I'd expect from one of the M1911 Colts I was issued (too many years ago) in the service. The two .36 Navy Colt replicas I owned (both Piettas too) also handled max FFFg (3Fg) loads with no problem, again with reasonable accuracy.

Again, DO NOT USE FFFFg (4Fg) in ANY PERCUSSION REVOLVER except a Ruger Old Army.

 

[LeeRoy87]

A little off topic, but...

Outstanding cap-and-ball revolver accuracy probably has a lot to do with chamber lube. I use Dixie's Old Zip Patch Grease, which about 15 years ago (back in the woods and quite by accident) I found out is many times more accurate than any other chamber lube I ever tried. So far it's 100 percent free of multiple ignitions too.

As to the Rugers themselves -- I have a pair -- I have gotten rid of all my other percussion revolvers since I got them, and today I can't imagine wanting anything else in the way of blackpowder handguns. The Rugers are simply superb -- so good in every respect, I have sometimes carried one (or both) even in situations where conventional sidearms are legal, as when, a decade ago, I was invited trout fishing in serious bear country, but at the time had no cartridge revolver bigger than a 6-inch .357 and didn't want to lug a modern pump shotgun or a .45-70. The Rugers came with me, one in a hip holster, the other in a shoulder rig, both loaded with flat-nosed conicals; the Smith & Wesson stayed home.

In my backyard penetration tests -- in those probably gone-forever halycon days when I lived in real country -- the 220-grain conicals powered by 36 grains of FFFFg equalled (and occasionally slightly exceeded) the water-and-wood penetration of the famous 255 gr. lead-semi-wadcutter .45 Colt (Ruger only) monster-masher, which is said by folks who know to be the best bear-emergency handgun load in the world. The conicals, cast of pure lead, held together much better than the SWCs, which were cast of #2 alloy and were thus much harder.

(Now we know why so few of those old Colt Dragoons and Colt Walkers survived: a great many of them went to Alaska as bear-country sidearms. A true story, by the way.)

Anyhow -- to get back on topic -- you can see why I so deeply resent having to give up real black powder.

 

[Rebel]

Thanks for the reply, and for clearing that up. I know that the Old Army is one strong revolver. I can see your concern for not wanting to use 4f in the Italian revolvers.

 

[jh2oman]

Many thanks to those of you who replied. From many of the posts and from some other messages I now have a (short!)list of potential sources. Wish me luck!

JW