Real Hawken or not?

[warbike39]

I visited with Bob Browner, one of the premier makers of authentic Hawken rifles. We looked ar @warbike39's pictures and compared the pictures to known S. Hawken squirrel rifles. The butt plate, trigger guard, cheek piece profile, the carving around the lock, the escutcheon plate for the lock bolt, stamping, and stock architecture are comparable to the known S. Hawken squirrel rifles. The percussion drum and nipple are rare, but not unknown. Most had the semi patent breech with the snailed nipple seat. Of course it would require a hands-on physical inspection to fully authenticate the rifle. One of the viewers was as interested in the contents of the trading post as much as the rifle. Any pictures of the closed up trading post?

The 95 gauge mold should cast a 0.366" diameter ball that would be suitable for a 38 caliber rifle especially since they loaded a much looser patch and ball combination than we do.

I think the trading posts were done and gone before I was 10 years old. The receipt books I found from them were from the 40s and 50s. One on the jicarilla apache reservation, one on the Navajo reservation near Shiprock and one down toward Chinle n.m
My son did find two ball Mason jars full-of silver conchas hidden in the root cellar, a Kachina doll, a small tourist bow and arrow set and some trinkets from the 50s. We still have the silver conchas and the Kachina doll, the rifle, both powder horns, the small powder measuring device and the ball mold.
D. I lived and worked in that country for years and explored it.

 

[warbike39]

Where are you gentlemen located? Perhaps I could bring the rifle by for you to examine.
D.

 

[deerstalkert]

that Kachina doll may be more valuable than the rifle.

 

[warbike39]

that Kachina doll may be more valuable than the rifle.

I've been told that. I have seen and found things in the desert that would blow people's minds but have left and returned them out of respect.

 

[warbike39]

I meant re buried them

 

[Eterry]

@Tanglefoot

This image from post #22 is the one we thought might be a blowing horn:

View attachment 209388

This image, from post#39, does indeed show what appears to be a powder measure attached to the powder horn:

View attachment 209391

Interestingly, the powder charger looks to me as if it is made of metal, maybe heavily tarnished brass or copper. I've never seen another one quite like it. I wonder if it might have been some odd metal part that was repurposed as a powder charger.

Thanks to Dave for posting all of this!

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

I grew up hunting with hounds. Both coon and coyote hounds. I can say with 100% certainty image 22 is a blowing horn, based on the mouth.
I have several horns, one a goat horn which is over 130 years old. It has a very distinctive sound.

 

[warbike39]

I grew up hunting with hounds. Both coon and coyote hounds. I can say with 100% certainty image 22 is a blowing horn, based on the mouth.
I have several horns, one a goat horn which is over 130 years old. It has a very distinctive sound.

I can take more pics of the measuring device and possible blowing horn tomorrow if you would like me to?
Dave

 

[DuncNZ]

Hawken rear sights are distinctive , Do you have any closeups of the rear sight ?

 

[Eterry]

I can take more pics of the measuring device and possible blowing horn tomorrow if you would like me to?
Dave

Take a few of the mouth of the horn, that should determine what you have.

I think those who say the brass piece is a measurer are correct. It never entered my mind to use wax to adjust the powder charge.

I tried to carve a wooden measure sitting in a tree stand once and got it much to deep. I tossed it in the fire that evening, never thinking about rehabbing it.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Hawken rear sights are distinctive , Do you have any closeups of the rear sight ?

I've looked at 4 Hawken squirrel rifles. Each one has a different rear sight. Apparently, back in the day sights were changed often to give the shooter a better sight of the target. @warbike39's rear sight is very much like one of the sights on an original squirrel rifle I have seen.

 

[warbike39]

I grew up hunting with hounds. Both coon and coyote hounds. I can say with 100% certainty image 22 is a blowing horn, based on the mouth.
I have several horns, one a goat horn which is over 130 years old. It has a very distinctive sound.

I can take more pics of the measuring device and possible blowing horn tomorrow if you would like me to?

I've looked at 4 Hawken squirrel rifles. Each one has a different rear sight. Apparently, back in the day sights were changed often to give the shooter a better sight of the target. @warbike39's rear sight is very much like one of the sights on an original squirrel rifle I have seen.

 

[springfield art]

I'm pretty much sure after owning it for almost 30 years and chatting with 400 people about it that it is an original Samuel Hawken, just of a smaller caliber and less known.
D.

Doesn't appear like a 'fake' stamping. Too aged and proper looking.

 

[Notchy Bob]

The rifle itself should really be examined by an expert (which I am not) to make a definitive statement on its authenticity, but I think it's real. From the photos, @Herb indicated in post #57 that he is certain that it is an unmodified original, and he believes it is a Samuel Hawken "St. Louis Squirrel Rifle," and @Grenadier1758 (post #100) described showing the photos to Bob Browner, concluding that numerous features of the subject rifle are "...comparable to known S. Hawken squirrel rifles."

If Bob Browner and Herb Troester think it looks like a real Hawken, that's good enough for me.

There is a trinity of features here that make this rifle so remarkable. First is the famous maker, second is the good condition, and third is that it is accompanied by its own original accoutrements. Incredible!

Best regrds,

Notchy Bob

 

[buckleymarka56]

I found this rifle many many years ago hidden in the attic of an old home I bought in New Mexico. I am trying to confirm if it is a real Samuel Hawken gun. It appears to be either a .38 or .40 caliber. I have kept it wrapped up all these years exactly as I found it. Hidden with it were two old powder horns (one old and small and one larger and unfinished) also a small brass tin containing round lead balls, a small pliers like mold device for making bullets and a spoon for pouring lead with a corn cob handle.
Thanks for any help.
Dave

What did it check out to be? A Real one?
Still COOL AS HELL find. Hang it on a wall. But oil it some, DO NOT RESTORE OR POLISH IT. Lol

 

[warbike39]

I believe it's 100% real but am having it verified. I honestly won't even oil it and I live on the road so unfortunately don't have a wall to hang it on.

 

[beardedhorse]

Kabulrocks, thanks for sending the three videos and photos of the J. M. Davis Museum Hawken squirrel rifle. I liked the idea of using the video part of the cell phone camera to do the recording. And three different angles from butt to muzzle. Am headed to Jim Gordon's Museum and trying to find safest, non invasive, gentlest ways to examine and photograph the historic treasures. Shooting video of rifle on a gridded one inch square background could be helpful.
If these guns could talk, what stories would they tell? In being able to handle, measure, examine the real McCoys we can learn a lot more about them than from pictures in books or descriptions. Liked the observation one forum member made of the set that suggested the small horn with limited powder capacity and charger ideal for a day of hunting or shooting - maybe squirrels or rabbits.
For example, the Mariano Modena Hawken has a swamped barrel. Most Hawken Plains rifles I've encountered are straight or tapered. The rate of twist in rifling is about 1 in 34". Not likely a round ball rifle but .58 caliber bullet (conical or minie). Not something for squirrels or rabbits (per Valdez is Coming). Was originally a .54 or ,53 caliber and possibly 1 in 48" twist. In the Modena collection along with the lynx and leather shooting bag is a reinforced horn with an adjustable powder charging spout but we won't fiddle with it. Unlike your fixed powder charger where you could pour cornmeal in it and then transfer that volume of cornmeal to an adjustable brass powder measure. This would tell you and us what the service load may have been for that .36-.40 caliber Hawken rifle.
I might humbly suggest a wooden yardstick or soft clear plastic rulers to measure your Hawken rather than a steel tape. Less likely to scratch. There are forensic rulers - printed back and white blocks on paper set beside an article to give a photograph a reference of scale. On my Bill Large barrel I was able to slug it for land and groove pattern - not something you'd want to do with an antique. I have stainless cleaning rods with free spinning handles and bore or muzzle protectors to determine rifling on my modern barrels.
I believe you have a bona fide antique and in my humble opinion it could be wise to ask a professional museum conservator how to best examine and handle it. Maybe white cotton museum gloves, etc. Really nice discovery. Thanks for sharing so many photos of the entire set.

 

[deerstalkert]

I believe it's 100% real but am having it verified. I honestly won't even oil it and I live on the road so unfortunately don't have a wall to hang it on.

well now neighbor! i live about 45 minutes north of you and humbly offer a wall to hang that treasure upon!
i am in the planning stage of building a Hawken as close to original as possible. i can hardly wait for you to get yours verified. i found a '76 Winchester in a old house once but yours is what dreams are made of.

 

[buckleymarka56]

I believe it's 100% real but am having it verified. I honestly won't even oil it and I live on the road so unfortunately don't have a wall to hang it on.

How cool is that

 

[warbike39]

Thanks and always interesting to hear new opinions. I've been careful with the old girl for 30 years and pretty sure I won't scratch her with a standard tape measure. I'm hoping the community can learn more from this rifle.
D.

 

[Grenadier1758]

How long is the barrel?