Rebuild Project

[pjmcdonald]

I posted about this gun a while back in the percussion forum. I've decided to try to rebuild an old muzzleloader that has been around the family for the past 5 generations or so. It was in pretty rough shape, having sat in a garage uncleaned for at least the past 20 years. Got the barrel back from Mr. Hoyt, bored to .45 with a slow twist for PRB. Had the lock and trigger cleaned by L&R. Also ordered new lock and trigger, just in case. The originals were pretty rusted and are fairly weak. Started cleaning up parts.

Advice and suggestions are welcome. No markings and appears to have been just a parts gun. Worth more in sentimental value than anything and in our family, a shooter is more important than a wall-hangar. Thus it falls to me to rebuild.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w50/pjmcdonald/Old family gun/image_zps2pnakla8.jpeg

PS - I really am going to figure out how to imbed photos eventually!

 

[Obi-Wan Cannoli]

A five generation family heirloom is a terrible way to start learning gun building. Send it to a pro. Send all the parts, they could probably perform magic on something that a normal person would discard.....

...I do not know if you are a beginner or not, but even if you are an intermediate to advanced builder: I would still send it to a well known pro because of the sentimental value.

http://longrifle.com/artisans/artisanlist.asp?membersonly=yes#Longrifles,

 

[pjmcdonald]

Obi-wan,

I appreciate that a professional builder or restorer is much better suited to this. However, I don't believe this was ever a very high end rifle and I would not be surprised if one my ancestors cobbled it together from parts. I suspect that several of them, through the years, banged out repairs as needed. For example, the trigger guard has obviously been braised together - possibly after being broken. A chip in the butt at the toe was filled with something (no idea what - paste?) at some point. Finish looks like someone dipped it in varnish that is flaking all over. Barrel is very roughly filed on bottom half. Etc.

I agree, starting with this type project is probably not the best idea. Much easier, or much more likely to end in a better gun, to farm out the work. But in a way, repairing to serviceable condition provides a personal connection. I'm willing to take plenty of time and make a few compromises, such as forgoing the engraving on lock-plate or farming that out. I'm also going to keep the warts, such as the terribly bent/crooked tang, odd trigger guard, etc.

Perhaps in my excitement at finally starting to collect a few replacement parts, getting the barrel back (as ugly as it is!), and planning the project, I just wanted to share more than anything.

I don't believe I have any illusions - to do a proper job I expect to spend better than 100 hours on this gun. I will have to acquire and refine metal and woodworking skills. Some I haven't exercised in many years, some new. This is a journey as much as anything.

Thanks,
Paul

 

[Obi-Wan Cannoli]

The wood alone looks like it is going to be a complete nightmare for a novice to work on.

Many first builds end up in a rage filled pile of wood chips....

A pro could make that rifle a real show stopper....

but if you are still determined, start off by purchasing this book:

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/321/1/BOOK-GGC


(And consider the send it to a pro advice while reading it, and maybe get a TOW parts kit for a first build...something without sentimental value). :wink:

 

[54ball]

Ahhh, That's really a well constructed rifle. A 3/4 stock in iron. If deep South made there are not many surviving examples from that era....pre Civil War.

It could be of great historical significance.

The crusty flaky nasty poorly repaired condition you speak is typical of guns that age. The rough underside of the barrel is typical of period construction.

Frankly you don't as much about it as you think you know. This rifle at least needs to be examined by someone who actually knows these types of rifles, not some guy at the local gun,knife and pawn.

It may not be worth much at all, but what if it is? If it is something really special it survived pretty much intact through a Civil War and five generations of your family until....you.

 

[Obi-Wan Cannoli]

Good call on that. My math on 5 generations was a little fuddled, I was thinking early 20th...

 

[Eric Krewson]

Real easy to embed photos; Copy the img code to the right of your picture and paste it in the the text box here.

 

[Tinker2]

Yep, definitely don’t do it yourself

Nice looking gun you have.

Please don't sand the stock




William Alexander

 

[pjmcdonald]

Ahhh, That's really a well constructed rifle. A 3/4 stock in iron. If deep South made there are not many surviving examples from that era....pre Civil War.

It comes from western North Carolina mountains. I really love the 3/4 stock. Since I haven't done anything disastrous yet (I hope), other than disassembly and light cleaning off of dirt, spider sacks, bug debris, and the like, you gentlemen have me convinced to find a decent restorer to at least give it a good look.

Maybe a mistake but I did have the lock and trigger cleaned and the barrel done by professionals.

Of its history, I know my grandmother (now 93) remembers her grandmother's sister had it. Got passed down that side for a few generations then bounced back to my uncle and now me. She and my mom are piecing together the list of owners for me.

Frankly you don't as much about it as you think you know. This rifle at least needs to be examined by someone who actually knows these types of rifles, not some guy at the local gun,knife and pawn.

It may not be worth much at all, but what if it is? If it is something really special it survived pretty much intact through a Civil War and five generations of your family until....you.

That last bit - survived until me - is what really has me now reconsidering trying to do this myself. In some respects, I'm probably its last hope. It was meant for my cousin but he died a few years back. His sons have no interest. I have no children. Maybe a niece or nephew will eventually get into traditional ML but not likely. It came to me rather than becoming relegated to the barn, to end up finally in a scrap heap.

Too much wisdom and good counsel on this forum.

Thanks,

Paul

 

[excess650]

I KNOW there is a book on NC rifles, but I don't have it. It would be worth doing a bit of research prior to delving too far into this project.

Having had the barrel rebored didn't hurt. Hoyt wouldn't have rebored it if he felt it unsafe. The drum an nipple might be another matter. I MIGHT be inclined to replicate the rifle using the original barrel, if it were mine.

I passed up an original Leman in similar condition for $450 this past weekend, but then again, it wasn't a "family heirloom".

 

[Obi-Wan Cannoli]

is what really has me now reconsidering trying to do this myself.

For the love of God send that rifle to a pro, and turn your passion towards a kit build. :shocked2:

There are pros on this forum that can at the very least point you in the right direction for somebody willing and suitable to do the restoration job.

Forgo the professional engraving and relief carving if you want, as that is just the icing on the cake and possibly not appropriate to alter a historic rifle. It is about everything else in the project that demands a master's touch for a rifle that is that old, has a tremendous amount of sentimental value, and possible historic significance.

I am sorry if I am sounding like a broken record. :v

 

[54ball]

Paul,
Honestly I don't really care about the rifle. I care more for the owner and the story. I would hate for you find out in five or ten years that this rifle had historical and maybe monetary value that was somewhat lost in your restoration.

The bottom line is it it's a free country and you can do with it what you wish.

As far as it being in the family trash heap, sometimes the greastest things have been found that way. Peter Alexander mentions in his book that the remains of a fine Golden Age Kentucky Rifle was found in a coal furnace kindling bin.

The great Gamecock Rifle by Wiley Higgins, one of the few confirmed Georgia flintlock longrifles was found in the early 1970s at a Florida roadside flea market.

The master I study under restores originals. With your permission, I could share your photos with him and maybe he can give you more of an idea of what you have.
Let me know if want me to do that?

 

[pjmcdonald]

The master I study under restores originals. With your permission, I could share your photos with him and maybe he can give you more of an idea of what you have.
Let me know if want me to do that?

54ball - Please, share the photos!

Obi Wan - :surrender: It will go to a pro. I'm now in the market for a restorer. I checked the link you posted but haven't had time to go through the entire list of builders.

To sate my desire to build, I will also be in the market for a kit. I'd like to find something similar in style. I like Track's Leman Trade Rifle. Any idea if it could be modified to 3/4 stock or if anyone has tried something similar?

Thank you for helping me get my head out of my fourth point of contact. My ambition ofttimes exceeds my ability.

For a future post in the appropriate forum, I hope to provide the lineage and history of this little gun.

Regards,

Paul

 

[rijerolmon]

This group provides EXPERT advise, this way you will wind up with the antique and one to shoot/hunt with. The Leman Trade Rifle is a good choice, just finishing one, I like the way it shoulders and holds. Double check the lock bolt location before drilling to make sure the tumbler clears at full cock (don't ask why I mention that).

 

[Obi-Wan Cannoli]

Obi Wan - :surrender: It will go to a pro.

Good to hear. :hatsoff:

 

[54ball]

Paul,
here is something to think about.
A bench copy.
A bench copy is where the rifle is used as a pattern for a new one. The original is left intact and the new rifle is a very close copy of the original.
The new twin can be used with no worry. This can be costly, as to get a true copy the stock will have to be carved from a blank and some parts handmade like the triggerguard and buttplate just like the original was made.
That's really the only way to do a true copy as available mass produced parts may be close but are really not quite like this original. Close...but no cigar.
I have forwarded the photos, maybe he'll have some advice for you.

 

[pjmcdonald]

54,

Good thought. I was thinking along similar lines, but scaled up slightly. The old girl is small, only 13 1/2" length of pull. I'm a big guy at 6'5". I'm more comfortable at closer to 14" or 14 1/2". I can handle 15" without fuss (long arms).

Currently have a Pedersoli Kentucky and old TC "Hawken" but want to build a solid, well fitting gun for hunting and general sport shooting. Fancy is not my thing. Good lines, like this old gun, and that elusive quality that says "this gun has been around for a century and will be for a century to come."

The 3/4 stock is something that I find unique. Lots of half and full stock rifles and kits available. Haven't found found another 3/4. Hence my query about modding a Lehman kit to match.

Again, thank all of you very much for steering me in a positive direction.

Regards,
Paul

 

[54ball]

A 3/4 stock rifle is featured in Gary Coopers Sgt York 1941. It was Cooper's Alvin's rifle. There is lots of old mountain rifles in that movie.

 

[Pete G]

Look at some of the kits marketed as "Tennessee Rifles". They will give you the iron furniture and similar architecture. It is a fairly simple matter to shorten the forestock and add a rib in its place.

 

[54ball]

This is the info I have for you. A lot we already knew.

He said your rifle is a late period percussion piece(1860-1920).
Here is his reply...
"This is a late period half stock southern rifle. Unless there is a signature on the barrel or something to identify it to a maker or region I doubt that it would be of a great value.The only thing that I notice that is a little unusual about the rifle is that it has a really long forearm but other than that I see nothing to make it special. He would be much better off to have it preserved as a family heirloom. Trying to make a shooter out of this little rifle in my opinion is doing an injustice to the rifle.

Thanks for sending the pictures and I hope your friend makes the right decision."

If you want to have it professionally done I can give you some contact info....

I know a fellow who specializes in Western NC rifle kits "Gillespie Rifles". While not exactly like yours it's pretty close and I can check with him to see if he can do a long a extra forearm, 3/4 stock.
Let me know....
Good Luck.