Recoil

[Bountyhunter]

I keep hearing folks talk about recoil. "50-60 grains of powder is fine for nice groups at 25 yards but if you bump it up to 75, the recoil is fierce."

I want to hear some opinions on what people think recoil should be. I shoot a .53, and when I hunt I use 120 gr of FFg under a 390 gr Hornady GP bullet. I shoot an original Springfield with 70 gr of compressed FFg under a 500 gr Govt bullet. I shoot large caliber centerfire rifles and handguns with hot hunting loads. I do not notice the recoil on my .53 or .45-70, or 12 guage shotgun. The centerfires will wake you up. I equate hunting loads~~killing loads~~with the equal and opposite reaction, recoil. However, black powder does not recoil in my estimation as does smokeless powder. I just dont notice the recoil, what's your take on recoil?

 

[rebel727]

Recoil with bp is more push than the hard shove of smokeless. I use 100 grs. of FF in my 50 cal. For realism I use 90 grs. of FF in my 58 Springfield with a 525 gr Minie ball but when I hunt with it the charge goes up to 120 grs. Like you I use 70 grs. in my 45-70 with a 500 grainer. I can shoot these guns all day long with no ill effects. I do not have a bp shotgun but my model 12 lets me know when I've fired it a few times. My 1887 Win. lets me know a lot sooner. Funny thing about these two tho is I never noticed any recoil out of either one of them when I was a kid.

 

[TANSTAAFL]

BP ML's from the bench shooting stiff charges in a large caliber from a low rest & leaning into position can punish me. If sitting upright with a high rest or from standing offhand is pleasant with most loads.

Stock design, especially the butt, large & flat, wide, narrow & crescent, etc can make a great difference, or it does for me.

 

[spitfire]

BP ML's from the bench shooting stiff charges in a large caliber from a low rest & leaning into position can punish me. If sitting upright with a high rest or from standing offhand is pleasant with most loads.

Stock design, especially the butt, large & flat, wide, narrow & crescent, etc can make a great difference, or it does for me.

So very true :winking: !Weight & Balance of the Firearm also play a role in recoil energy & velocity. :hmm:

 

[Swampman]

I don't really notice recoil.

 

First thing we have to keep in mind is that recoil is a subjective thing. Also, as others have stated, stock design and shooting position contribute much to felt recoil.

I've also observed the vast difference between the recoil of smokeless powder as compared to black powder. I agree heartily that black is much more of a big push. I always considered recoil with smokeless rifles as more of a "snap", especially with over bore loads such as the 300 Win Mag. In contrast, to me the felt recoil of my old 338 Win. Mag was less than the 300's I've used in the past.

My Ballard 1 1/2 in 45-2.6 and a Lyman 457125 loaded over 90 grs. of black gives uncomfortable recoil, however, the buttplate is a deep crescent, very pointed at toe and heel as well as narrow. Offhand it is tolerable but I wouldn't want to shoot a 40 round string with it. Off a bench it's quite uncomfortable.....all due to stock design. I've yet to shoot a PRB load that I thought was uncomfortable but that only goes to 62 cal.

How are you guys getting a full 70 grs. of black under a 500 gr. bullet without seriously crushing the powder column or seating the bullet way out? I would think most of the driving bands would have to be exposed. Then that brings up the issue of overall length of the cartridge. The most I could ever load in any of the 45-70's I've owned with 500 gr.+ bullets and still maintain my accuracy requirements has been 65 grss of Ffg or Cartridge and that was using the thinner Winchester cases. Using Remington or Federal cases 60-61 grs. has been max.

Vic

 

[rebel727]

How are you guys getting a full 70 grs. of black under a 500 gr. bullet without seriously crushing the powder column or seating the bullet way out? I would think most of the driving bands would have to be exposed. Then that brings up the issue of overall length of the cartridge. The most I could ever load in any of the 45-70's I've owned with 500 gr.+ bullets and still maintain my accuracy requirements has been 65 grss of Ffg or Cartridge and that was using the thinner Winchester cases. Using Remington or Federal cases 60-61 grs. has been max.

Vic

It is a compressed load.

 

[Old Charlie]

Take my .54 GPR load a hundred grains of Goex 3f and a three hundred and eighty grain REAL bullet. At the end of the days shooting you will be black and blue.
Old Charlie

 

[rebel727]

Jasper Alabama huh? I might take you up on that some day. I like those real bullets too. I use 100 grs. of FF behind them in my .50 Hawken. Tried 110 but it blows my hammer back to half cock so I stop at 100 now.

 

[MikeChapin]

I don't shoot real heavy loads. For hunting I use 80 grains KIK 2F for a hunting load and 100 yard target load in my Santa Fe .53. That load will drop an elk within 100 yards. I use 50 grains for 25 and 50 yard target work in the same rifle. Recoil for the hunting load is a bit more than the 25 yard load but nothing really fierce.

The same goes for my .58. I use 90 grains for a hunting and 100 yard load. It has some recoil but nothing terrible. The ten and half pound weight of the rifle goes a long way to helping keep recoil acceptable.

For terrible recoil I base it on the first rifle I bought on my own, a Winchester 30-30 lever action carbine. With 150 grain bullets that thing would kill at both ends. The same for a friend of mine's 1885 Winchester lever action 45-70. Another nasty rifle to shoot. I agree with Rebel and others who mentioned that the slap of a smokeless rifle is quite different, and much more unpleasant, than the hard push of a muzzleloader.

 

[jtmattison]

The recoil of my BP rifles is not bad.
What bothers me is the sharp steel butt plate that cuts into my shoulder. I wear a recoil pad on my shoulder to remedy this.
I'll shoot my .54 with 100 grains of 3f all day long over shooting my .30-06 just ten times.

HD

 

[rebel727]

I'll shoot my .54 with 100 grains of 3f all day long over shooting my .30-06 just ten times.

HD

I roll my own 30-06's. 57 grs. of IMR4350 behind a 165 gr. BTBT. That's hot. Almost 3000 fps out of a 26 inch barrel. I'll shoot that baby all day long also.

 

[musketman]

However, black powder does not recoil in my estimation as does smokeless powder. I just dont notice the recoil, what's your take on recoil?

Most smokeless powder guns don't have a big, curvy brass butt plate digging into their shoulders either, perhaps that is what many are contributing to the effects of recoil pain... :hmm:

I have ran up to 150 grains of FFg in my Bess and 120 grains of FFg in my Zouave and both are manageable, even with just a lightweight shirt on...

 

[rebel727]

Yeah, you're right about that. I wouldn't want to shoot my 06 with the curved butt of my Hawken with it's solid brass recoil pad. :grin:

 

[Old Charlie]

With my GPR that dang sharp but plate is whats causing all the black and blue places. But puting that heavey 380 bullet in there makes it kick a lot more. The kick with a round ball over that same 100 grains of 3f don't kick nearly as bad.
Old Charlie

 

[roundball]

All my TC Hawkens have the curved brass buttplates and I'm not known for powder puff loads... :grin:...and I basically use only two powder charges from TC's load data tables:

Entry level charges for plinking;
Maximum level charges for hunting;

And even with the max charges, I've never been bothered by the curved brass buttplate...makes me wonder if we might be holding it differently.

I hold mine so it's against the crease where the shoulder/arm come together, and the toe of the curve is essentially down where the armpit curves down and in...shoot scores of shots that way without any discomfort

 

I could'nt agree with you more concerning the rifles weight Mike. My Hawken rifles al weigh between 10.5 & 12 pounds. Shooting a .490 PRB with my standard hunting load of 2F I feel very little recoil.

 

[Old Charlie]

My TC hawken don't bother me either. It is a .50 cal . So I guess it is not a fair comparison.
Old Charlie

 

I have never been recoil shy. Recoil with most BP loads are manageable by most people--it is more of a shove than a kick, like some smokeless loads. Alot depends on the weight of the rifle and shape of the butt, too. I tend to load light, not because of recoil, but because that typically gives me the best accuracy, is correct for the period(s) I do, and because when I hunt I treat the ML rifle/gun as a close range weapon. I found that with my .58 Hawken I had to go to 100 gr ffg to get the .565 ball rolling--to get a reasonable hunting trajectory. The 10 lb rifle stifled most recoil. But in my .50 I use only 70 gr fffg and recoil is not noticeable, yet I get fine accuracy and enough 50-75 yd 'power' to cleanly drop a deer. Right now I am experimenting with 75 gr ffg in my .54, but have not settled on a load yet....the heavy rifle dampens any recoil....

 

[noahmercy]

Well, the weight of the gun, shape of the buttplate, and other factors have been covered by others. One thing I haven't seen anyone address is the build of the person doing the shooting. A guy who's 6'4" and 180 pounds is going to perceive recoil dramatically differently from someone 5'9"/ 270. Why? The stocky feller is going to absorb all that recoil while the slender fella is going to move awy from it easily...inertia doncha' know. But I can also see where someone with bony shoulders might be more sensitive to recoil due to the lack of cushioning between the buttplate and his shoulder bone. So the folks who will suffer least from recoil are likely flexible, lean, muscular types...you know, youngsters! (Explains why some of us feel the recoil more as we age, doesn't it? :grin: )

I'm short and heavy and have big, beefy shoulders. I get pounded shooting off the bench, but standing I do well (due to the muscle over my shoulder bones providing some padding, no doubt). I have shot 4-bore rifles offhand with massive charges of BP and 1/4-pound balls and found the recoil stout, but less battering than my 300 Win Mag.

Frankly, I have always been confused by those who claim any style ML firing a PRB is "punishing"...in my experience it's just not true. Conicals change the equation, but unless coupled with large powder charges and poor stock design, they aren't that bad, either. (My opinion of course.)

:thumbsup: