Recommendations on a first Kit?

[Alaskan Hunter]

I am looking at building my first "Kit Gun". I am a left-handed shooter so the Traditions and TC kits are out of the question. My length of pull is 15"-15.5" so a Jim Chambers kit will be to short. I am a former finish carpenter so I can work with wood, but I currently dont have any power tools or a shop to put any. Does anyone have any sugjestions as to a kit manufacture?

 

[alaskasmoker]

As a new builder who is working on a "kit" I've come to the realization that maybe it would have been better to start with a blank. The books are way more helpful when you are starting from where they are starting.

Also, dont worry about power tools. All youll need is a hand drill and thats it.

My freind builds all his from scratch. He just uses hand-tools. he's not an expert, he just got his info from one book. His guns come out pretty good.

That being said if I were to start over in kit form again id get one from http://www.avsia.com/tvm/

Ive seen pics of their kits and alot of the big work is done. Alot of the work is done that is hard to do on other pre-carve stocks. And they will make whatever to your specs. The guy does everything by hand.

Im doing a pre carve from Pecatonica. Although Ive been happy with the company and the stock is great, this is almost an advanced undertaking as there is alot of steps you werent a part of that would give you better understanding of what is going on. Also because of they way its set up, if you dont like something there is now way to change it. Also right now Im stuck on where to put this buttplate. I have no idea where to start. Ill give pecatonica a call tommorow and see if they can help.

If you start from a blank your involved in everything and you get some safety net in the form of lots of wood.

 

[Birddog6]

Call Jim Chambers & ask him to cut the LOP longer for you. He has always been a very accommodating person & possibly can be so in this situation. :grin:

 

[Onojutta]

As a new builder who is working on a "kit" I've come to the realization that maybe it would have been better to start with a blank. The books are way more helpful when you are starting from where they are starting.

I will second that! And for all the same reasons. Pre-carve socks take some of the "danger" out of the job like drilling the ramrod hole and providing an overall shape of the stock, but there are a lot of things you trade for that. It seems like it would be a lot easier to locate the butt plate and breech plug when you are working with squared off wood rather than something that is already curved and rounded off.

The biggest advantage to a precarve is that it can serve as a template for shaping and lay-out if you don't have another gun on hand to use as an example.

 

[Zonie]

I respectfully disagree with any first or second time builder that claims that starting with a blank is better than starting with a pre carved stock.

Yes, the pre-carved stock will force some locations of parts to be be as the stockmaker thought they should be and yes these may conflict with the parts the builder has decided to use but for most people who are just learning the relationship between the lock, the breech of the barrel, the location of the triggers, the length of pull, the shaping of the buttplate etc. the unknowns in forming the full stock in the right proportions and relations with the metal parts will be daunting.

It is so easy to turn a 3 inch X 9 inch X 65 inch piece of fine wood into kindling that I cannot even begin to count the ways.

While there are some very experianced builders who have mastered the making of a chunk of wood into a beautiful rifle I don't pretend to be one of them.
I have built over 17 pre-carved rifle and pistol "kits" and two carved from a blank pistol but there is no way I would attempt to carve a fullstocked rifle out of a hunk of wood.

It would end up either looking like a chunky, boxy, ugly gun or like a scrawny misshapen very strange looking gun.

It is one thing to look at a 2D full sized drawing of something and quite a different thing to create the 3D item it depicts.

Just my opinion. :hmm:

 

[Onojutta]

Zonie,
I'll let you know in a few months whether I agree or disagree or retract my statement- I am working on a pre-carve and a blank simultaneously. :shocked2:

By the way, I'm surprised to hear that you don't have the confidence to take on a rifle blank. Your words of wisdom and advice on this forum are in no short supply and tend to suggest the contrary. :bow:

You ought to take a crack at it sometime. I'm sure you stand as good a chance as anyone. :thumbsup:

PS - Just for the record there is no way I would tackle a blank without several books, pictures, full scale pattern, and most importantly a pre-carved stock and a real working rifle at my side for 3D reference.

 

[Birddog6]

The biggest advantage to a precarve is that it can serve as a template for shaping and lay-out if you don't have another gun on hand to use as an example.

The biggest advantage to a Precarve is the end result is a rifle that looks similar to what it was intended to look like, rather than a Lancaster looking like a Lehigh or a Tenn. rifle, or a box of abandoned parts the guy got discouraged with.

IMHO, Were it not for precarves, 75% of the rifles started today would have never be finished. :wink: It is real easy to take a nice maple stock & make it into a piece of kindling, and it doesn't even make good kindling ! :rotf:

If it were not for precarves, 75% of the rifles being built right now would never be built.

 

[Onojutta]

If it were not for precarves, 75% of the rifles being built right now would never be built.

No way. I don't know anyone who builds from a pre-carve besides newbies and guys in a hurry...and Zonie!. :grin:

 

[CZMark]

If it were not for precarves, 75% of the rifles being built right now would never be built.

I know I could never properly shape a blank in the area from the front of the lock panels to the rear of the wrist. Never.

 

[Twice boom]

I don't think many newbies are up to the job of shaping the blank with out having something to go off of .Even the guy that's been doing it for while can get in trouble of the shaping going from one style to something he is not familiar with....IMO

 

[R.J.]

I firmly believe the pre-carved stocks have a place. For fellas like me perhaps. Now I'm not inept, or lazy. I just don't have the time to devote to a scratch build, and have it finished in this life time. Being a machinist for the last 30 years has taught me to be accurate and careful. Being a custom call maker has taught me the ins and outs of various domestic and exotic woods. Checkering centerfire rifle stocks has taught me patience. I still don't want to start a scratch build. Just today, a co-worker brought in his last scratch build to show me. A beautiful Lancaster rifle. He started with an air dried beautifuly curled Maple blank. This is a superbly executed and finished rifle. I would be proud to own it, even if I didn't build it myself. By the way, he wouldn't take $2,300.00 for it today. That is how much he has involved himself in this build. From start to finish, in his spare time, it took a little under 7 years. This included the drying the stock blank.So, the actual "working" time was less I guess. But he sawed the tree and blank himself. This one of 4 rifles he has done this way. I agree there is something special about a beautiful scratch build, but I would, and likely will, do one from a pre-carved. My life is too full to do anything other than that. Oh, I planned to have pics of this fellas rifle to post here. I told him the feed back would be of interest to him. Get this, he has no digital camera, or internet service! No wonder he has time to do up hand carved rifles. I had no camera on hand today, but am trying to scedule a photo shoot with him. I gotta get him out of the woods long enough to buy a camera and get on line! Sheese!

 

[chuck-ia]

Just my thoughts, but I think you guys under estimate your abilities. If you have a blank, barrel, lock setting if front of you it might seem impossible. I think you have to make each step a project in itself, such as inletting the barrel, lock and so on. A blue print is allso nice to give you a profile of the rifle you want to make. I have made 5 guns from precarved stocks and 2 from blanks, I would probably sell any of the precarved for what it cost me to build, not so with the 2 from blanks, the 2 from blanks actually turned out pretty nice, took me pretty much a year for each, I think I have learned a lot more from building from a blank. I figure it took me around 200 hours to finish a precarve, and 400 from a blank. But, what a feeling of accomplishment when shooting that gun from a blank. flinch

 

[Old40Rod]

I'll stick with pre-carved for now... but I don't have anything inlet but the barrel channel and the rr hole drilled. For better or worse, the part of my brain God set aside for the "arts", just didn't take like the analytical side. I'm getting better as I grow older, but I am not one of those guys that can look at a blank and create a thing of beauty by just removing all the wood that doesn't look like a rifle. I have nothing but the greatest admiration and envy for those who can.

 

[Onojutta]

Marshall,
I hear you on the time thing. If I really wanted to build quickly I definitely see where the precarved stocks can be a huge time saver.

I took up gun building because it seems like an escape from the fast-paced synthetic world I live in. In this day and age everybody wants everything yesterday and for nothing and for me this hobby is a way to try to connect with a bi-gone time when quality was more important than time. If I really wanted a perfect rifle that badly, I'd just buy one. It is such a pleasure to come home from a hectic day at the office and go down in my basement where I can spend 3 hours trying to meticulously remove a few thousands of wood from an inlay. I don't know whether or not I can successfully build from a blank. Hell, I don't even know if I can successfully build from a precarve. But like someone else said, I treat every step as a project in and of itself, and if I can discipline myself not to get in a hurry, it should be an enjoyable learning experience even if I don't succeed.

 

[R.J.]

I can relate to the "Synthetic" life style. Most of my centerfire rifles now have evolved into synthetic / stainless affairs. My afore mentioned gun building buddy and I were wondering just what it was like for the Hawken boys. Or any Colonial gun smith for that matter.I can't imagine the skill level of these people. Hand tools and not much else, and turned out rifles that we modern fellas have trouble re-creating. They have my utmost respect.

 

[Onojutta]

And it's important to remember that it took a gunsmith apprentice 7 years to learn the trade! I wonder what their "first build" would look like...

 

[CZMark]

And it's important to remember that it took a gunsmith apprentice 7 years to learn the trade! I wonder what their "first build" would look like...

Beautiful. An aprentice would not start out building rifles. He would sweep floors, then move on to sharpening and making tools, cleaning up brass castings, making screws, making ramrod pipes, and advancing to the next level,etc. After years of this prep work and advancement, he would finaly build his first rifle.

 

[chuck-ia]

I was pretty content with doing precarves from Pecatonica, Track, North Star West, but a good friend, who allso builds guns, (from a blank) kinda kept hounding me about trying one from a blank, I finally gave in, am now ready to start on my 3rd one from a blank, maybe I just got lucky with the first 2 as they seem to shoot ok. I don't mind the extra work and time. I am by no means an expert and seem to struggle from time to time on the simpler things, the big thing for me is not to hurry. Nothing wrong with precarves, I may try another one some day, but for now I like the blanks. I hope I didn't bite off more than I can chew as my next one will be a 38" oct. to round 16 guage barrel, for me it seems the scariest part is drilling the ram rod hole. flinch

 

[deanscamaro]

Zonie, I have to agree with your position. I just finished taking a blank and creating a finished CVA 45 cal. Kentucky pistol stock, which I am fairly pleased with. The only way I was able to do that is that I had the original pre-carved (albiet cracked) stock that came with the kit. If I hadn't had that, I wouldn't have even attempted the task. It still took me a long time to do it and a lot of questioning my own talents at many points in the process.
:thumbsup: