Rehardening frizzens - one size fits all? Musings for metallurgy masterminds....

[Coinneach]

Or like I have done old used hack saw blade with the teeth ground off and shaped then silver solder it on.

I've seen it done here "Down Under" and the boys say it lasts well into the years.

 

[Coinneach]

Never had any luck with cherry red. I have wrapped the frizzen in leather, stuck it in a soup can packed with leather and put it in the glowing coals of a fire for an hour. Then drop it in a tub of cool water.

This technique was shared with me by someone older than dirt who said that the way they used to do it. I don't know, but its worked 3 different times for me.

Thats my preferred option, done it a couple of times and it works very well.

Grind up some dry bones into powder and mix it all with a little water into a damp slurry, cut out some reasonably thick leather and soak it in water, then sew it up into a bag like container that will be a loose fit over the Frizzen face (removed from Lock), slip the damp leather bag over the Frizzen and pack the Bone powder slurry on the Frizzen face only.
Then wrap reasonably thin soft tie wire side by side, lay spiralled all the way down the Frizzen so the leather bag is completely covered (holds "the "innards" intact during the heat treatment) and go to it.

The trick is all in the preparation.
It really does work a treat and you'll find it primevaly satisfying to have done it yourself.

 

[BEP]

Got to join in here. Seems like whenever I read about someone using Kasenit to harden a frizzen face, they follow the directions that come with the product. Those directions weren't written with frizzen hardening in mind. I bought a lot of Kasenit when it was available (fortunately) and use it in a slightly different manner. I hold the frizzen flat, face up, using a wire coat hanger as a holder. I heat the frizzen to past red to orange, then apply a thick coating of Kasenit. I use an old fashioned blowtorch - the kind that burns Coleman fuel - as a heat source and I hold it at heat for around 30 minutes. My "soak" is determined by how long the fuel lasts in that torch. From time to time I sprinkle a bit more Kasenit on the frizzen face. For a quench. I use a mixture of two quarts very thin motor oil and a quart of transmission oil at room temperature. I make sure to swirl the frizzen around in the oil so it constantly comes in contact with fresher, cooler oil.

My son is a member of a reenactment group. I've done a number of frizzens for him and other members (and other people as well, of course) and have always had very good results. It's not unusual for those guys to fire 100 rounds or so per event. The frizzens I've hardened have and are still giving good service.

And there will be people who will say "you're doing this or that or something else completely wrong " - there always is - but my method works very well. I sometimes think that the frizzens that were casehardened are castings, not forgings or milled out of solid stock, and thus may be more porous. Not a metallurgist so just a guess. Never used Cherry Red. I've got enough Kasenit to outlast me so can't speak to Cherry Red's effectiveness.

 

[beardedhorse]

Either Fred Stutzenburger or the Bevel Brothers in Muzzle Blasts highly recommends never using the depleted uranium frizzen material. Hazardous to breathe particulate matter or come in contact with people on the firing line as well as yourself. Used it once in the 70's and still have a full piece from Russel K. Hamm formerly in Florida. Hope whoever I sold the depleted uranium soled lock to knows about the warnings and discontinue using it . Like Kasenit, it is no longer available. Case hardening a frizzen will require annealing the tail of the frizzen and near the screw hole. Using a pressurized air hose to percolate the water you drop the (bone and leather carbon sourced) case hardened frizzen into can give you an attractive mottled pattern. Any pattern on the frizzen face gets scraped away by the flint. Soft soldering a hardened (at non magnetic heat) frizzen sole can be just the right amount of heat to draw down the temper to useable hardness. You could also rivet a tempered sole unto a soft annealed frizzen with brass rod. Both the sole and frizzen are drilled ahead of time when soft to line them up. Alternatively you can use strong epoxy compound on undrilled frizzen to glue on the tempered sole. For any of the sole methods you may have to grind the frizzen back to keep the correct geometry and flint to frizzen distance.

 

[Nav]

I put a .68 Dragoon pistol together with a non-hardened frizzen. I followed the directions and heated it with an acetylene torch to bright red, put the Cherry Red powder on (it melts), and quenched in water. The first one I ruined when my hand bumped the O2 and I cut a nasty divot in it. No cracks, and it sparks very well. YMMV, but this worked perfectly for me, and since I plan to shoot this .68 horse pistol only once in a while, so if I get 200 shots I'll probably be in the ground by the time it gives up the ghost.

Not sure what the reaction is/was with the Cherry Red, but the results speak for themselves.

 

[LRB]

One method approach... Pack in charcoal hardening compound. Heat to 1625-1650F for around 3 hours or so. Maybe a little more. Allow to cool. Re-heat and to around 1525F and quench in a proper heat treating oil or even warm canola oil. Heat only the striking face with the torch when re-heating. Temper at around 350-375F. Further temper the pan cover up to the bend of the frizzen with a torch to a good blue color. This will draw the hardness of this area a little more. Grind the face and you're good to go.

I would use a different approach if I new the material. For example sometimes a brine quench can be best, but it can be more prone to cause cracking. We happen to use a brine quench to maximize frizzen hardness. Also, depending on geometry and material, tempering can be optional.

With this said, the one size fits all approach should work well with about any frizzen.

Jim Kibler
Metallurgical Engineer

Years ago, I found that in making fire strikers from 1095 a brine quench was less "violent" upon entry, and I never had one crack. I did have some crack using a water quench before I tried the brine.

 

[flconch53]

Years ago, I found that in making fire strikers from 1095 a brine quench was less "violent" upon entry, and I never had one crack. I did have some crack using a water quench before I tried the brine.

Have tried the brine it worked good but I can't seem neutralize the effects of the salt.Any suggestions on that?

 

[LRB]

Have tried the brine it worked good but I can't seem neutralize the effects of the salt.Any suggestions on that?

What effects do you get? I have never noticed anything other than the 1095 steel being hard and grayish in color. What is your recipe for brine? I used one 26-ounce box of sea salt per two gallons of bottled water, heated to a clear solution, cooled, then rewarmed to maybe 100°/110°F. in a common steel bucket. I dropped the piece in and let it go to the bottom. picked it out and go to another. I never noticed anything that was problematic.

 

[FlinterNick]

What effects do you get? I have never noticed anything other than the 1095 steel being hard and grayish in color. What is your recipe for brine? I used one 26-ounce box of sea salt per two gallons of bottled water, heated to a clear solution, cooled, then rewarmed to maybe 100°/110°F. in a common steel bucket. I dropped the piece in and let it go to the bottom. picked it out and go to another. I never noticed anything that was problematic.

Hi Wick, what is meant when to neutralize the effects of the salt in a brine quench?

I use tree stump remover (potassium nitrate) in my brines, about half a cup in a large bucket of hot water, the water i get from a dehumidifier, i stopped using my NJ tap water, i was getting cracks for a long time, a friend of mine reminded me that our tap has a lot of chlorine in it.

 

[LRB]

Hi Wick, what is meant when to neutralize the effects of the salt in a brine quench?

I use tree stump remover (potassium nitrate) in my brines, about half a cup in a large bucket of hot water, the water i get from a dehumidifier, i stopped using my NJ tap water, i was getting cracks for a long time, a friend of mine reminded me that our tap has a lot of chlorine in it.

That is what I asked. I don't know what needs neutralizing. It is my understanding that salt brine evenly coats the steel in salt by some form of natural action which prevents an unwanted vapor jacket forming by breaking any vapor formation as fast or faster than it forms, thus preventing uneven cooling which is what causes cracking. We are talking near nano second speed. It has been a while now, but I cannot recall anything other than clean gray steel upon retrieval. I always used distilled water or spring water if I had to, and sea salt warmed.

 

[rich pierce]

I think “neutralizing the effects of salt” might refer to preventing “after rust”?

 

[flconch53]

What effects do you get? I have never noticed anything other than the 1095 steel being hard and grayish in color. What is your recipe for brine? I used one 26-ounce box of sea salt per two gallons of bottled water, heated to a clear solution, cooled, then rewarmed to maybe 100°/110°F. in a common steel bucket. I dropped the piece in and let it go to the bottom. picked it out and go to another. I never noticed anything that was problematic.

I use the recipe you previously published. The probelm I have is corrosion I assume is coming from the salt as I don't get it with plain water. I do get cracks occasionally with plain water and would like to avoid that

 

[LRB]

Po

I think “neutralizing the effects of salt” might refer to preventing “after rust”?

Possible Rich, but I never noticed any more or less and I have the St Johns river for a front yard. I am curious to know what I have missed. I never had rust problems with guns or knives in my shop. Nothing out of the ordinary, and less than one might expect. Now then, with the file decorated strikers, I would cold blue them then fine sand the high parts to high light the file work.

 

[LRB]

I use the recipe you previously published. The probelm I have is corrosion I assume is coming from the salt as I don't get it with plain water. I do get cracks occasionally with plain water and would like to avoid that

Maybe boil in clean water or wash with a soda solution? How soon after do you get the corrosion?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Got to join in here. Seems like whenever I read about someone using Kasenit to harden a frizzen face, they follow the directions that come with the product. Those directions weren't written with frizzen hardening in mind. I bought a lot of Kasenit when it was available (fortunately) and use it in a slightly different manner. I hold the frizzen flat, face up, using a wire coat hanger as a holder. I heat the frizzen to past red to orange, then apply a thick coating of Kasenit. I use an old fashioned blowtorch - the kind that burns Coleman fuel - as a heat source and I hold it at heat for around 30 minutes. My "soak" is determined by how long the fuel lasts in that torch. From time to time I sprinkle a bit more Kasenit on the frizzen face. For a quench. I use a mixture of two quarts very thin motor oil and a quart of transmission oil at room temperature. I make sure to swirl the frizzen around in the oil so it constantly comes in contact with fresher, cooler oil.

My son is a member of a reenactment group. I've done a number of frizzens for him and other members (and other people as well, of course) and have always had very good results. It's not unusual for those guys to fire 100 rounds or so per event. The frizzens I've hardened have and are still giving good service.

And there will be people who will say "you're doing this or that or something else completely wrong " - there always is - but my method works very well. I sometimes think that the frizzens that were casehardened are castings, not forgings or milled out of solid stock, and thus may be more porous. Not a metallurgist so just a guess. Never used Cherry Red. I've got enough Kasenit to outlast me so can't speak to Cherry Red's effectiveness.

In my case I position the frizzen on top of the charcoal in my DIY forge and do the same thing with the Kasenit, for I too stocked up on the stuff, and I only use it on frizzens. I follow the same procedure for about the same amount of time, for the same reason. The lads don't complain and the sparking is quite improved. I've done Italian frizzens, Japanese frizzens, and India frizzens.

LD

 

[flconch53]

Maybe boil in clean water or wash with a soda solution? How soon after do you get the corrosion?

Within a day. I have tried rinsing in fresh water. I will try boiling when I do some more.

 

[M. De Land]

Have tried the brine it worked good but I can't seem neutralize the effects of the salt.Any suggestions on that?

Boil in soda water.

 

[BeardedGunsmith]

Anybody that's a tightwad or can't find kasenit, pulverized charcoal works just as well. It's pure carbon. I've case hardened with it many times.

 

[M. De Land]

I've seen it done here "Down Under" and the boys say it lasts well into the years.

The trouble with the quick heat up and paste hardeners is time. I have quite a bit of experience in bone case coloring and it takes a good bit of time ( 1.5 hours or so ) at about 1500 degree F. to get a decent case depth from carbon migration into the steel. It still won't be more than about .003-.005 deep.
You can cook in a surface flash with a torch and some Kase-nite but it won't be much over a .001 -.002 or so and that will last for a while but not as good as the full treatment in a crucible filled with bone and/or hardwood charcoal cooking for an hour or two. If you don't need color than you can go up to 1600 F. or so and quench in light sulfur quench oil and really drive in the carbon. The deepest case I've ever read of was maximize at .032. Mauser bolt actions are generally about .012 deep on average I've read and they will handle 50 K psi.
Barring a full crucible case treatment then shoeing makes a great deal of sense as 1095 spring stock already has the carbon contained thru out and all that is needed is to shape, attach ,heat and quench.

 

[Coinneach]

The trouble with the quick heat up and paste hardeners is time. I have quite a bit of experience in bone case coloring and it takes a good bit of time ( 1.5 hours or so ) at about 1500 degree F. to get a decent case depth from carbon migration into the steel. It still won't be more than about .003-.005 deep.
You can cook in a surface flash with a torch and some Kase-nite but it won't be much over a .001 -.002 or so and that will last for a while but not as good as the full treatment in a crucible filled with bone and/or hardwood charcoal cooking for an hour or two. If you don't need color than you can go up to 1600 F. or so and quench in light sulfur quench oil and really drive in the carbon. The deepest case I've ever read of was maximize at .032. Mauser bolt actions are generally about .012 deep on average I've read and they will handle 50 K psi.
Barring a full crucible case treatment then shoeing makes a great deal of sense as 1095 spring stock already has the carbon contained thru out and all that is needed is to shape, attach ,heat and quench.

Thank you sir, good advice.