Restore A Flintlock Pistol

[Tumbler]

You seem to have missed the point entirely, Sir. Your cars are not now, and never will be, a totally handmade item from well over two hundred years ago with its maker's hand on each and every piece. Those 'years of crap' ARE the history of this rare survivor from a bygone age. Remove it and you've erased not only the years but a huge percentage of the value, even though you may not be intent on selling it, perhaps one day there will be somebody who would.

My two Sniders look pretty good, and their bores are immaculate from end to end, but I would no more think of dismantling them to give them a good clean and refinish than I would try to fly unaided.

Still, it's your pistol, and you must do what you want, however upsetting it might be to other people.

Boy do I disagree with you. If 200 years ago someone threw the pistol in a pail of mud, let it sit there for 200 years I guess you would choose to leave the mud alone as the mud has lived on the pistol for 200 years and deserves to be there.

 

[Tumbler]

John Manton was a fine gunsmith and a clever man to boot. His pistols are definately worth owning .......but possibly not if restored. By removing the crap you may well destroy its value totally. Guns are not like cars.
Plus theree is a very high likelyhood that you will crack or split a screw when removing it. Do not forget that the metal used 180 odd years ago is not going to be as you find on todays guns.
But....it is yours.

The screws you refer to took 4 weeks to massage them out without cracking the screws or defacing the beautiful engraving on the head.

 

[Tumbler]

Hi Tumbler,
The engraved screws are usually quite soft so be very careful. Using heat from a soldering iron is a good idea to help loosen them but try not to destroy any heat coloring originally applied. Be careful about scraping away any varnish unless you are absolutely sure it is some later addition. The steel hardware was likely charcoal blued and sometimes a varnish was applied over the metal to preserve the color, which can fade over time. A light cleaning is not a bad thing but too vigorous and it can ruin details and destroy historical value. Hopefully, you don't plan to re-brown the stub twist barrel. I assume there is one lock bolt. The lock almost certainly has a hook or lug on the front that catches a stud imbedded in the lock mortice. Be very careful removing the lock. Loosen the bolt and then tap it gently to push the lock out. It is going to still be caught in the front so it will come out at a slight angle and may snag brittle 200 year old wood
along the way. Just tap a little, inspect, tap a little more, inspect, etc. I also recommend placing the lock at half **** and engaging the sliding safety bolt before attempting to remove the lock. Over 200 years of age and wear may allow the hook on the mainspring to drop a little lower in the mortice possibly snagging wood on the bottom. By placing the lock at half **** before removing, you should avoid that risk. If you clean the checkering, use a soft brush because 200 year old wood can be brittle and you could chip off a diamond.


dave

Hi Dave. Great advice. I removed the lock and you are correct as to how it was fitted and comes apart. The varnish is a later addition. I am still pondering how to remove the excess varnish from the trigger guard. Whoever did the prior restoration work on this pistol did a poor job. Unfortunately the stub twist barrel has been re-browned. I don’t like it but plan to leave it alone. Thanks for the advice on the checkering.

 

[Tumbler]

Getting that guard finial free will likely pull of wood from the inletting . I'me sure your a whizz on motor cars items I know little about nor much care for . I hope I'me whittling for nothing The raceing stripes dig hasn't got me jumping up & down . I feel sure its but jest .Though you might put a mock up just to **** a snook (.I would probably.!) However I think basically you mean well & are taking great care it just seems well enough as it is . You sought opinions & that's mine
.Regards Rudyard

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[TFoley]

Boy do I disagree with you. If 200 years ago someone threw the pistol in a pail of mud, let it sit there for 200 years I guess you would choose to leave the mud alone as the mud has lived on the pistol for 200 years and deserves to be there.

Sir, over-reactions like this one are the primary reason that I usually choose to ignore posts by people, like yourself, who seem intent on making a 200+ y/o pistol look as though it had just been unwrapped.

From the image you have shown us, the pistol does NOT appear to encased in mud, maltreated in any way, or displaying much more than the marks that come from being handled over a long period of time, even to the extent of already having suffered a degree of 'restoration'. Those marks are part of it, and intrinsic to its history. Who knows, for instance, how such an arm got to america in the first instance? Wouldn't we all like to know?

As I noted, do as you please with your still-valuable treasure, but don't expect everybody to say what a wonderful job you've made of making it look just like the product of Signore Pedersoli.

 

[Tumbler]

John Manton was a fine gunsmith and a clever man to boot. His pistols are definately worth owning .......but possibly not if restored. By removing the crap you may well destroy its value totally. Guns are not like cars.
Plus theree is a very high likelyhood that you will crack or split a screw when removing it. Do not forget that the metal used 180 odd years ago is not going to be as you find on todays guns.
But....it is yours.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Tumbler]

Sir, over-reactions like this one are the primary reason that I usually choose to ignore posts by people, like yourself, who seem intent on making a 200+ y/o pistol look as though it had just been unwrapped.

From the image you have shown us, the pistol does NOT appear to encased in mud, maltreated in any way, or displaying much more than the marks than come from being handled over a long period of time, even to the extent of already having suffered a degree of 'restoration'. Those marks are part of it, and intrinsic to its history. Who knows, for instance, how such an arm got to america in the first instance? Wouldn't we all like to know?

As I noted, do as you please with your still-valuable treasure, but don't expect everybody to say what a wonderful job you've made of making it look just like the product of Signore Pedersoli.

I have no expectations from anyone. I thought that someone might find it interesting to see how I hope to restore this pistol. Take a vote. If you don’t want me to write a pictorial about it I’ll stop. And for what it is worth the picture does not show the unwanted grim that was never intended for this firearm. Also we have the same discussions about what is under-restored and over restored with vintage cars (with all due respect pistols and prewar cars are not that much different). Prewar care are large but were hand built- like a lock and great care is taken to preserve original pieces at all cost. We take points off cars that are over-restored. Then there are barn finds that have been sitting in a garage for 75 years and the new owner is actually told by some to not remove the dust or fix the uphostry that has rat dung in it because it will loose its patina. Thankfully in the last several years this movement is going out of vogue. There will always be discussions about whether to restore and if so how to do it right. So let me know if you want me to continue. No hard feelings.

 

[Tumbler]

Sorry but someone might this point significant. Pre and postwar cars have a lot of wood in them. No they are not 200 years old but there are inlayed eschuceans in them that take great care to remove without ruining the surrounding wood. The work is slow and tedious. Often you have to walk away to decide how to finish a small piece of a large project. That is why the best car restoration shops are so few and charge so much.

 

[toot]

???.

 

[Carl in France]

Tumbler, it is yours so crack on as you wish. I have restored two cars...no more!! One a Morris that is covered in wood but the analogy is not the same. In car restoration you are generally going for returning the car, as best you can to showroom and this does not detract from value at all.
Taking a firearm and going further than general cleaning does detract from value and also it can ruin a gun for the majority of collectors. Stripping down and re building can also be a needless risk to the weapon and the weapons furniture.
You are obviously insistent that you will do so and if the resulting finish gives you pleasure then all good. I think most here are trying to help, we are not suggesting you do not clean the weapon but i think you may well ruin it with a restoration.

 

[Robby]

I kind of get the gist of what you are trying to accomplish and wish you all the best. There are restorers that pretty much wax it and leave it alone even it it has had the lock up graded from flint to percussion, some do their best to restore them to original and it is truly amazing what they can do. Me(?), if the pistol was serviceable,
i would shoot it and clean it as it was intended to be used, a lot! My patina would become part of its history. Let the pillorying begin!
Robby

 

[JCKelly]

Restoring lowers the desirability of the gun for me, and for others.

Skillful restoration is still restoration. Make a new ramrod & leave it alone.

Antique guns are valued differently than are old cars. They really are. Originality and history matter

Sell it.

 

[appalichian hunter]

Its your gun, time and money go for it, As to value it will definitely suffer from the restoration, no matter how good a job you do. Guess it is all in the owners eye. I would vote to see a pictorial record of how to ruin a piece of history but that is just me.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
While I don't recommend restoration much beyond stabilization (and I do recommend stabilization so further damage from age and rust is reduced), I think folks should realize that the high value placed on leaving dirt, grime, and damage is largely an American perspective. I am not sure it is as common an attitude in other countries. Moreover, rust and dirt that obscures identifying marks actually lowers the value because those marks link the gun to historical provenance. This stuff requires a large dose of common sense and experience. Of course the big problem with common sense is that it is all too common and often makes no sense. As Einstein commented, it is the collection of prejudices we all acquire before age 18.

dave

dave

 

[Relic shooter]

I agree with other form members, if your not familiar with gun building & restoration send that beauty to someone who will not damage it.
I've collected & fired my original firearms for the past several decades after determining that they were safe to fire. The best method I've found to remove stuck screws, nipples, etc. is by applying a 50/50 mixture of auto transmission fluid & acetone around the head & threads of the screw & apply sparingly if it's around the wood to avoid marring the finish.. Give the solution about an hour to penetrate the threads & occasionally you will need to re-apply. It's critical to make use a proper sized firearms screw driver that fits the slot to avoid damaging the screw head & surrounding surface.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I'm late to this discussion. I will say the pistol that is shown in the original post is a beauty. If it were mine, I would probably wipe it down and leave it alone. Maybe pull it out now and then, aim it at a squirrel out the window and say BANG! If it is functional as it is, I might try actually shooting it, but not much.

Dave Person's comments regarding stabilization versus restoration were pertinent, and appreciated. Rudyard also voiced some of my concerns, in that removing tight-fitting metal parts from the wooden stock might lift chips of wood. I would be concerned about penetrating oils soaking into the wood, if they are used to treat metal parts that are still in the stock.

Tumbler has indicated he is experienced in restoring and working on classic cars. I've known a few mechanics, who just like to keep things running, and then there are "gearheads" (no offense intended to anyone) who can't resist the opportunity to turn screws and pull wrenches. My brother is one of those. He likes to take things apart (especially old Triumph motorcycles), clean up and "grok" the individual pieces, and reassemble them. Maybe Tumbler is like my brother. It sounds like he wants to take the pistol apart without hurting anything, preserving the patina while removing the grime, and then put it back together. "Restoration" implies more than that, to me. I get the feeling that he understands the value (monetary and historical) of the pistol in his possession, and is willing to take the associated risks in doing this project. It sounds like he is taking his time, but it also sounds like he is determined to do it whether the rest of us approve or not. He has sought advice, and he seems to have kept his temper and remained cordial.

So, the project is admittedly over my head, but it appears to be well under way. I am interested in how it is going. I would request that the OP post a few more pictures, if possible.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[oreclan]

With all do respect and I sincerely mean that I am a self taught restoration specialist of British and Italian sports cars of 50 years. I have read the two books on the Manton Brothers as well as the suppliment. There are professional cars that are restored right and there are gunsmiths that restore these vintage firearms. Since I am new maybe I won't put anyone out to say I have a website on the Ferrari Daytona, restored a Daytona and a Lusso, showed cars ,judged cards and buy and sell cars. I have over the years been told I don't have the experience to do something. I'm used to it. I hope I have not offended any one or try to seem too big for my britches. I believe I can use my car experience background to do this project. I hope I am right. I defenately would welcome any input.

Two very different skill sets.

 

[TFoley]

So let me know if you want me to continue. No hard feelings.

Please ignore me and my old-fashioned ideas.

 

[Tumbler]

There is truly a way to restore most anything. It is knowing when to stop. I believe I know that. I plan to stop the thread and PM those people who might field questions from me. Also I have outside sources to contact who are experts in the art of restorations of many kinds of old relics. All the best and thank you for your comments.

 

[RB POWELL]

I wouldn't do a thing to that firearm. Restoration will only harm it, in my opinion. But, it is yours to do with as you wish.